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MARCH 1, 2016 

Serial No. 114-78 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

Available via the World Wide Web: 

98-899 PDF WASHINGTON : 2016 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office 
Internet: Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 
Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 


BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman 

JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan 
ZOE LOFGREN, California 
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 


DARRELL E. ISSA, California 
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 
TED POE, Texas 
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 
RON DeSANTIS, Florida 
MIMI WALTERS, California 
KEN BUCK, Colorado 
DAVE TROTT, Michigan 
MIKE BISHOP, Michigan 


JUDY CHU, California 
TED DEUTCH, Florida 
KAREN BASS, California 
SUZAN DelBENE, Washington 
SCOTT PETERS, California 

Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & General Counsel 
Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel 



MARCH 1, 2016 



The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary 1 

The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary 4 


Honorable James B. Comey, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation 

Oral Testimony 6 

Prepared Statement 9 

Bruce Sewell, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Apple, Inc. 

Oral Testimony 98 

Prepared Statement 101 

Susan Landau, Ph.D., Professor of Cybersecurity Policy, Worcester Poly- 
technic Institute 

Oral Testimony 104 

Prepared Statement 106 

Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., District Attorney, New York County 

Oral Testimony 131 

Prepared Statement 133 


Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Chabot, a Representative in Con- 
gress from the State of Ohio, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary 18 

Material submitted by the Honorable Darrell E. Issa, a Representative in 
Congress from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the 

Judiciary 31 

Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Con- 
gress from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judici- 
ary 43 

Material submitted by the Honorable Cedric Richmond, a Representative 
in Congress from the State of Louisiana, and Member, Committee on the 

Judiciary 68 

Material submitted by the Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in 
Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the 
Judiciary 87 


Material Submitted for the Hearing Record 

Material submitted by the Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in 
Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the 

Judiciary 180 

Material submitted by the Honorable Doug Collins, a Representative in Con- 
gress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .. 183 

Questions for the Record submitted to the Honorable James B. Comey, Direc- 
tor, Federal Bureau of Investigation 186 




Response to Questions for the Record from Bruce Sewell, Senior Vice Presi- 
dent and General Counsel, Apple, Inc 189 

Response to Questions for the Record from Susan Landau, Ph.D., Professor 

of Cybersecurity Policy, Worcester Polytechnic Institute 201 

Response to Questions for the Record from C 3 TUS R. Vance, Jr., District 
Attorney, New York County 209 

Unprinted Material Submitted for the Hearing Record 

Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress 
from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary. This sub- 
mission is available at the Committee and can also be accessed at: 
http: / / docs, / Committee / Calendar I By Event. aspx ?EventID=1045 73 

Material submitted by Bruce Sewell, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, 
Apple, Inc. This submission is available at the Committee and can also be 
accessed at: 

http-.j ! / Committee / Calendar I ByEvent.aspx?EventID=104573 



House of Representatives 
Committee on the Judiciary 
Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 1:05 p.m., in room 2141, 
Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Bob Goodlatte 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Goodlatte, Sensenbrenner, Chabot, Issa, 
King, Jordan, Poe, Chaffetz, Marino, Gowdy, Labrador, Collins, 
DeSantis, Walters, Buck, Conyers, Nadler, Lofgren, Cohen, John- 
son, Chu, Deutch, Gutierrez, Bass, Richmond, DelBene, Jeffries, 
C^icilliii.6 Hud 

Staff Present: (Majority) Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & Gen- 
eral Counsel; Branden Ritchie, Deputy Chief of Staff & Chief Coun- 
sel; Zachary Somers, Parliamentarian & General Counsel; Kelsey 
Williams, Clerk; Caroline Lynch, Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on 
Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations; Ryan 
Breitenbach, Counsel, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Home- 
land Security, and Investigations; (Minority) Perry Apelbaum, Staff 
Director & Chief Counsel; Danielle Brown, Parliamentarian & 
Chief Legislative Counsel; Aaron Hiller, Chief Oversight Counsel; 
Joe Graupensperger, Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on Crime, Ter- 
rorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations; James Park, Chief 
Counsel, Subcommittee on the Constitution; David Greengrass, 
Counsel; Eric Williams, Crime Detailee; and Veronica Eligan, Pro- 
fessional Staff Member. 

Mr. Goodlatte. We’d ask all the members of the media that are 
taking thousands of pictures here. I’m sure they got some excellent 
ones of the Director, but we ask you to please clear aside so we can 
begin the hearing. 

The Judiciary Committee will come to order. And without objec- 
tion, the Chair is authorized to declare recesses of the Committee 
at any time. We welcome everyone to this afternoon’s hearing on 
The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Pri- 
vacy. And I will begin by recognizing myself for an opening state- 

We welcome everyone today to this timely and important hearing 
on encryption. Encryption is a good thing. It prevents crime, it pre- 
vents terrorist attacks, it keeps our most valuable information safe, 
yet it is not used as effectively today as is necessary to protect 

( 1 ) 


against the ever-increasing sophistication of foreign governments, 
criminal enterprises, and just plain hackers. 

We see this manifest almost every week in the reports of losses 
of massive amounts of our most valuable information from govern- 
ment agencies, retailers, financial institutions, and average Ameri- 
cans. From identity theft, to the compromising of our infrastruc- 
ture, to our economic and military security, encryption must play 
an ever-increasing role, and the companies that develop it must be 
encouraged to increase its effectiveness. 

Encryption is a topic that may sound arcane, or only the province 
of techies, but, in fact, it is a subject whose solutions will have far- 
reaching and lasting consequences. The Judiciary Committee is a 
particularly appropriate forum for this congressional debate to 
occur. As the Committee of exclusive jurisdiction over the United 
States Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Federal Criminal 
Laws and Procedures, we are well-versed in the perennial struggle 
between protecting Americans’ privacy and enabling robust public 

This Committee is accustomed to addressing many of the signifi- 
cant legal questions arising from laws that govern surveillance and 
government access to communications, particularly the Wiretap 
Act, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the Foreign Intel- 
ligence Surveillance Act, and the Communications Assistance to 
Law Enforcement Act, otherwise known as CALEA. 

Today’s hearing is a continuation of the Committee’s work on 
encryption, work that Congress is best suited to resolve. As the 
hearing title indicates, society has been walking a tightrope for 
generations in attempting to balance the security and privacy of 
Americans’ communications with the needs of our law enforcement 
and intelligence agencies. In fact, the entire world now faces a 
similar predicament, particularly as our commerce and communica- 
tions bleed over international boundaries on a daily basis. 

Encryption in securing data in motion, and in storage, is a valu- 
able technological tool that enhances Americans’ privacy, protects 
our personal safety and national security, and ensures the free flow 
of our Nation’s commerce. Nevertheless, as encryption has increas- 
ingly become a ubiquitous technique to secure communications 
among consumers, industry, and governments, a national debate 
has arisen concerning the positive and negative implications for 
public safety and national security. 

This growing use of encryption presents new challenges for law 
enforcement seeking to obtain information during the course of its 
investigations, and, even more foundationally, test the basic frame- 
work that our Nation has historically used to ensure a fair and im- 
partial evaluation of legal process used to obtain evidence of a 

We must answer this question: How do we deploy ever stronger, 
more effective encryption without unduly preventing lawful access 
to communications of criminals and terrorists intent on doing us 
harm? This now seems like a perennial question that has chal- 
lenged us for years. In fact, over 15 years ago, I led congressional 
efforts to ensure strong encryption technologies, and to ensure that 
the government could not automatically demand a backdoor key to 
encryption technologies. This enabled the U.S. encryption market 


to thrive and produce effective encryption technologies for legiti- 
mate actors rather than see the market head completely overseas 
to companies that do not have to comply with basic protections. 
However, it is also true that this technology has been a devious 
tool of malefactors. 

Here is where our concern lies: Adoption of new communications 
technologies by those intending harm to the American people is 
outpacing law enforcement’s technological capability to access those 
communications in legitimate criminal and national security inves- 

Following the December 15 terrorist attack in San Bernardino, 
California, investigators recovered a cell phone owned by the Coun- 
ty government, but used by one of the terrorists responsible for the 
attack. After the FBI was unable to unlock the phone and recover 
its contents, a Federal judge ordered Apple to provide reasonable 
technical assistance to assist law enforcement agents in obtaining 
access to the data on the device, citing the All Writs Act as its au- 
thority to compel. 

Apple has challenged the court order, arguing that its encryption 
technology is necessary to protect its customers’ communications, 
security, and privacy, and raising both constitutional and statutory 
objections to the Magistrate’s order. 

This particular case has some very unique factors involved, and, 
as such, may not be an ideal case upon which to set precedent. And 
it is not the only case in which this issue is being litigated. Just 
yesterday, a magistrate judge in the Eastern District of New York 
ruled that the government cannot compel Apple to unlock an 
iPhone pursuant to the All Writs Act. 

It is clear that these cases illustrate the competing interests at 
play in this dynamic policy question, a question that is too complex 
to be left to the courts and must be answered by Congress. Ameri- 
cans surely expect that their private communications are protected. 
Similarly, law enforcement’s sworn duty is to ensure that public 
safety and national security are not jeopardized if possible solu- 
tions exist within their control. 

This body, as well, holds its own constitutional prerogatives and 
duties. Congress has a central role to ensure that technology ad- 
vances so as to protect our privacy, help keep us safe, and prevent 
crime and terrorist attacks. Congress must also continue to find 
new ways to bring to justice criminals and terrorists. We must find 
a way for physical security not to be at odds with information secu- 
rity. Law enforcement must be able to fight crime and keep us safe, 
and this country’s innovative companies must, at the same time, 
have the opportunity to offer secure services to keep their cus- 
tomers safe. 

The question for Americans and lawmakers is not whether or not 
encryption is essential, it is; but instead, whether law enforcement 
should be granted access to encrypted communications when en- 
forcing the law and pursuing their objectives to keep our citizens 

I look forward to hearing from our distinguished witnesses today 
as the Committee continues its oversight of this real-life dilemma 
facing real people all over the globe. 


It’s now my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the 
Committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers, for his 
opening statement. 

Mr. Conyers. Thank you. Chairman Goodlatte. Members of the 
Committee and our first and distinguished guest, I want to asso- 
ciate myself with your comments about our jurisdiction. It is not 
an accident that the House Judiciary Committee is the Committee 
of primary jurisdiction with respect to the legal architecture of gov- 
ernment surveillance. 

In times of heightened tension, some of our colleagues will rush 
to do something, anything, to get out in front of an issue. We wel- 
come their voices in the debate, but it is here, in this Committee 
room, that the House begins to make decisions about the tools and 
methods available to law enforcement. 

I believe that it is important to say up front, before we get into 
the details of the Apple case, that strong encryption keeps us safe, 
even as it protects our privacy. Former National Security Agency 
Director, Michael Hayden, said only last week that America is 
more secure with unbreakable end-to-end encryption. In this room, 
just last Thursday, former Secretary of Homeland Security, Mi- 
chael Chertoff, testified that in his experience, strong encryption 
laws help law enforcement more than it hinders any agency in any 
given case. 

The National Security Council has concluded that the benefits to 
privacy, civil liberties, and cybersecurity gained from encryption 
outweigh the broader risks created by weakening encryption. And 
Director Comey himself has put it very plainly: universal, strong 
encryption will protect all of us, our innovation, our private 
thoughts, and so many other things of value, from thieves of all 
kinds. We will all have lock boxes in our lives that only we can 
open, and in which we can store all that is valuable to us. There 
are lots of good things about this. 

Now for years, despite what we know about the benefits of 
encryption, the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation have urged this Committee to give them the author- 
ity to mandate that companies create backdoors into their secure 

I have been reluctant to support this idea for a number of rea- 
sons. The technical experts have warned us that it is impossible to 
intentionally introduce flaws into secure products, often called 
backdoors, that only law enforcement can exploit to the exclusion 
of terrorists and cyber criminals. The tech companies have warned 
us that it would cost millions of dollars to implement and replace 
them at a competitive disadvantage around the world. The national 
security experts have warned us that terrorists and other criminals 
will simply resort to other tools entirely outside the reach of our 
law enforcement and intelligence agencies. 

And I accept that reasonable people can disagree with me on 
each of these points, but what concerns me, Mr. Chairman, is that 
in the middle of an ongoing congressional debate on this subject, 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation would ask a Federal mag- 
istrate to give them the special access to secure products that this 
Committee, this Congress, and the Administration have so far re- 
fused to provide. 


Why has the government taken this step and forced this issue? 
I suspect that part of the answer lies in an email obtained by The 
Washington Post and reported to the public last September. In it, 
a senior lawyer in the intelligence community writes that although 
the legislative environment toward encryption is very hostile today, 
it could turn in the event of a terrorist attack or a criminal event 
where strong encryption can be shown to have hindered law en- 
forcement. He concluded that there is value in keeping our options 
open for such a situation. 

I’m deeply concerned by this cynical mind-set, and I would be 
deeply disappointed if it turns out that the government is found to 
be exploiting a national tragedy to pursue a change in the law. 

I also have doubts about the wisdom of applying the All Writs 
Act, enacted in 1789, codified in 1911, and last applied to a commu- 
nications provider by the Supreme Court in 1977, to a profound 
question about privacy and modern computing in 2016. I fear that 
pursuing this serious and complex issue through the awkward use 
of an inept statute was not, and is not, the best course of action, 
and I’m not alone in this view. 

Yesterday, in the Eastern District of New York, a Federal judge 
denied a motion to order Apple to unlock an iPhone under cir- 
cumstances similar to those in San Bernardino. The court found 
that the All Writs Act, as construed by the government, would con- 
fer on the courts an overbroad authority to override individual au- 
tonomy. However, nothing in the government’s argument suggests 
any principal limit on how far a court may go in requiring a per- 
son, or company, to violate the most deeply rooted values. 

We could say the same about the FBI’s request in California. The 
government’s assertion of power is without limiting principle, and 
likely to have sweeping consequences, whether or not we pretend 
that the request is limited to just this device or just this one case. 

This Committee, and not the courts, is the appropriate place to 
consider those consequences, even if the dialogue does not yield the 
results desired by some in the law enforcement community. I’m 
grateful that we are having this conversation today back in the 
forum in which it belongs, the House Judiciary Committee. And so 
I thank the Chairman very much. And I yield back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Conyers. 

And without objection, all other Members’ opening statements 
will be made a part of the record. 

We welcome our distinguished witness of today’s first panel. And 
if you would please rise. I’ll begin by swearing you in. 

Do you swear that the testimony that you are about to give shall 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. COMEY. I do. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you very much. Please be seated. 

I’ll now begin by introducing our first distinguished witness 
today. Director James Comey of the Federal Bureau of Investiga- 
tion. Director Comey began his career as an Assistant United 
States Attorney for both the Southern District of New York and the 
Eastern District of Virginia. After the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Direc- 
tor Comey returned to New York to become the United States At- 
torney for the Southern District of New York. In 2003, he was ap- 


pointed deputy attorney general under the United States Attorney 
General, John Ashcroft. 

Director Comey is a graduate of the College of William & Mary 
and the University of Chicago Law School. 

Director, welcome. Your entire written statement will be made a 
part of the record. And I ask that you summarize your testimony 
in 5 minutes. And we have the timing light that you’re well famil- 
iar with on the table. Again, welcome. We’re pleased that you are 
here, and you may begin your testimony. 


Mr. Comey. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Conyers. 
Thank you for hosting this conversation, and for helping us all talk 
about an issue that I believe is the hardest issue I’ve confronted 
in government, which is how to balance the privacy we so treasure, 
that comes to us through the technology that we love, and also 
achieve public safety, which we also all very much treasure. 

I worry a little bit that we’ve been talking past each other, both 
folks in the government and folks in the private sector, when it 
comes to this question of encryption, which we in the government 
call “going dark.” What I’d like to do is just take 3 or 4 minutes 
and try to frame how I think about it, in a way I hope is fair, fair- 
minded, and if it’s not, I hope you’ll poke at me and tell me where 
you think it’s not, but these are the things I believe to be true: 

First, that the logic of encryption will bring us, in the not-too- 
distant future, to a place where all of our conversations and all of 
our papers and effects are entirely private; that is, where no one 
can listen to our conversations, read our texts, read our emails un- 
less we say so, and no one can look at our stuff, read our docu- 
ments, read things we file away without our agreement. That’s the 
first thing I believe, that the logic of encryption is taking us there. 

The second thing I believe is, as both you and Mr. Conyers said, 
there’s a lot of good about this, a lot of benefits to this. All of us 
will be able to keep private and keep protected from thieves of all 
kinds, the things that matter most to us, our ideas, our innovation, 
our secret thoughts, our hopes, our dreams. There is a lot to love 
about this. We will all be able to have storage spaces in our life 
that nobody else can get into. 

The third thing I believe is that there are many costs to this. For 
the last two centuries, public safety in this country has depended, 
in large measure, on the ability of law enforcement agents going 
to courts and obtaining warrants to look in storage areas or apart- 
ments, or to listen with appropriate predication oversight to con- 
versations. That is the way in which law enforcement brings us 
public safety. It is very, very important, and it’s been part of the 
balance in ordered liberty, that sometimes the people’s stuff can be 
looked at, but only with predication and only with oversight and 
approval by an independent judiciary. 

The fourth thing I believe is that these two things are in tension 
in many contexts, increasingly in our national security work, and 
in law enforcement work, generally across the country. We see it 
obviously in ISIL’s efforts to reach into this country, and using mo- 
bile messaging apps that are end-to-end encrypted, task people to 


kill innocent people in the United States. That is a huge feature 
of our national security work and a major impediment to our 
counterterrorism work, because even with a court order, what we 
get is unreadable; to use a technical term, it’s gobbledygook. Right? 
We cannot decrypt that that which is covered by strong encryption. 

We also see it in criminal work across the country. We see very 
tragically last year in Baton Rouge where a pregnant woman 8 
months pregnant was killed by somebody she opened the door to. 
And her mom says she kept a diary, but it’s on her phone, which 
is locked, and so the case remains unsolved. 

And most recently and most prominently, as both Mr. Conyers 
and the Chairman mentioned, we see it in San Bernardino, a case 
where two terrorists, in the name of ISIL, killed 14 people and 
wounded 22 others at an office gathering and left behind three 
phones, two of which, the cheaper models, they smashed beyond 
use, and the third was left locked. 

In any investigation that is done competently, the FBI would try 
to get access to that phone. It’s important that it’s a live, ongoing 
terrorism investigation, but in any criminal investigation, a com- 
petent investigator would try and use all lawful tools to get access 
to that device, and that’s what you see happening in San 

The San Bernardino case is about that case. It obviously high- 
lights the broader issue and, of course, it will we looked upon by 
other judges and other litigants, but it is about the case and trying 
to do a competent job of understanding, is there somebody else? 
And are there clues to what else might have gone on here? That 
is our job. 

The fifth thing I believe is that democracies resolve these kind 
of really hard questions through robust debate. I think the FBI’s 
job is very, very limited. We have two jobs. The first is to inves- 
tigate cases like San Bernardino, and to use tools that are lawful 
and appropriate. The second thing, it’s our job to tell the American 
people, the tools you are counting on us to use to keep you safe are 
becoming less and less effective. 

It is not our job to tell the American people how to resolve that 
problem. The FBI is not some alien force imposed upon America 
from Mars. We are owned by the American people, we only use the 
tools that are given to us under the law. And so our job is simply 
to tell people there is a problem. Everybody should care about it, 
everybody should want to understand if there are warrant-proof 
spaces in American life. What does that mean? And what are the 
costs of that and how do we think about that? 

I don’t know what the answer is. It may be the American people, 
through Congress and the courts, decide it’s too hard to solve, or 
law enforcement can do its job well enough with strong encryption 
covering our communications and our papers and effects, or that 
it’s something that we have to find a way to fix to achieve a better 
balance. I don’t know. My job is to try to offer thoughtful expla- 
nations about the tools the FBI has, and to bring them to the at- 
tention of the American people, and then answer questions about 

So I’m very, very grateful for this forum, very, very grateful for 
this conversation. There are no demons in this debate. The compa- 


nies are not evil, the government’s not evil. You have a whole lot 
of good people who see the world through different lenses, who care 
about things, all care about the same things, in my view. The com- 
panies care about public safety, the FBI cares about innovation and 
privacy. We devote our lives to try to stop people from stealing our 
innovation, our secrets, and hacking into our devices. We care 
about the same things, which should make this in a way an easier 
conversation, which I very much look forward to. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Comey follows:] 












MARCH 1,2016 


James B. Comey 

Federal Bureau of Investigation 
Before the 

Committee on the Judiciary 
U.S. House of Representatives 

At a Hearing Entitled 

“Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy” 

March 1, 2016 

Good morning. Chairman Goodlatte, Ranking Member Conyers, and members of the 
Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the challenges 
to public safety and national security that have eroded our ability to obtain electronic information 
and evidence pursuant to a court order or warrant. 

In recent years, new methods of electronic communication have transformed our society, 
most visibly by enabling ubiquitous digital communications and facilitating broad e-commerce. 
As such, it is important for our global economy and our national security to have strong 
encryption standards. The development and robust adoption of strong encryption is a key tool to 
secure commerce and trade, safeguard private information, promote free expression and 
association, and strengthen cyber security. We are on the frontlines of the fight against cyber 
crime, and we know first-hand the damage that can be caused by those who exploit vulnerable 
and insecure systems. We support and encourage the use of secure networks to prevent cyber 
threats to our critical national infrastructure, our intellectual property, and our data so as to 
promote our overall safety. 

American citizens care deeply about privacy, and rightly so. Many companies have been 
responding to a market demand for products and services that protect the privacy and security of 
their customers. This has generated positive innovation that has been crucial to the digital 
economy. We, too, care about these important principles. Indeed, it is our obligation to uphold 
civil liberties, including the right to privacy. 

We have always respected the fundamental right of people to engage in private 
communications, regardless of the medium or technology. Whether it is instant messages, texts, 
or old-fashioned letters, citizens have the right to communicate with one another in private 


without unauthorized government surveillance — not simply because the Constitution demands 
it, but because the free flow of information is vital to a thriving democracy. 

The benefits of our increasingly digital lives, however, have been accompanied by new 
dangers, and we have been forced to consider how criminals and terrorists might use advances in 
technology to their advantage. For example, malicious actors can take advantage of the Internet 
to covertly plot violent robberies, murders, and kidnappings; sex offenders can establish virtual 
communities to buy, sell, and encourage the creation of new depictions of horrific sexual abuse 
of children; and individuals, organized criminal networks, and nation-states can exploit 
weaknesses in our cyber-defenses to steal our sensitive, personal information. Investigating and 
prosecuting these offenders is a core responsibility and priority of the Department of Justice. As 
national security and criminal threats continue to evolve, the Department has worked hard to stay 
ahead of changing threats and changing technology. 

We must ensure both the fundamental right of people to engage in private 
communications as well as the protection of the public. One of the bedrock principles upon 
which we rely to guide us is the principle of judicial authorization: that if an independent judge 
finds reason to believe that certain private communications contain evidence of a crime, then the 
Government can conduct a limited search for that evidence. For example, by having a neutral 
arbiter — the judge — evaluate whether the Government’s evidence satisfies the appropriate 
standard, we have been able to protect the public and safeguard citizens’ Constitutional rights. 

The more we as a society rely on electronic devices to communicate and store 
information, the more likely it is that information that was once found in filing cabinets, letters, 
and photo albums will now be stored only in electronic form. We have seen case after case — 
from homicides and kidnappings, to drug trafficking, financial fraud, and child exploitation — 
where critical evidence came from smart phones, computers, and online communications. 

When changes in technology hinder law enforcement’s ability to exercise investigative 
tools and follow critical leads, we may not be able to root out the child predators hiding in the 
shadows of the Internet, or find and arrest violent criminals who are targeting our neighborhoods. 
We may not be able to identify and stop terrorists who are using social media to recruit, plan, and 
execute an attack in our country. We may not be able to recover critical infoniiation from a 
device that belongs to a victim who cannot provide us with the password, especially when time is 
of the essence. These are not just theoretical concerns. 

We continue to identify individuals who seek to join the ranks of foreign fighters 
traveling in support of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, commonly known as ISIL, and 

- 2 - 


also homegrown violent extremists who may aspire to attack the United States from within. 

These threats remain among the highest priorities for the FBI, and the United States Government 
as a whole. 

Of course, encryption is not the only technology terrorists and criminals use to further 
their ends. Terrorist groups, such as ISIL, use the Internet to great effect. With the widespread 
horizontal distribution of social media, terrorists can spot, assess, recruit, and radicalize 
vulnerable individuals of all ages in the United States either to travel or to conduct a homeland 
attack. As a result, foreign terrorist organizations now have direct access into the United States 
like never before. Some of these conversations occur in publicly accessed social networking 
sites, but others take place via private messaging platforms. These encrypted direct messaging 
platforms are tremendously problematic when used by terrorist plotters. 

We are seeing more and more cases where we believe significant evidence resides on a 
phone, a tablet, or a laptop — evidence that may be the difference between an offender being 
convicted or acquitted. If we cannot access this evidence, it will have ongoing, significant 
impacts on our ability to identify, stop, and prosecute these offenders. 

We would like to emphasize that the Going Dark problem is, at base, one of 
technological choices and capability. We are not asking to expand the Government’s 
surveillance authority, but rather we are asking to ensure that we can continue to obtain 
electronic information and evidence pursuant to the legal authority that Congress has provided to 
us to keep America safe. 

The rules for the collection of the content of communications in order to protect public 
safety have been worked out by Congress and the courts over decades. Our country is justifiably 
proud of the strong privacy protections established by the Constitution and by Congress, and the 
FBI fully complies with those protections. The core question is this; Once all of the 
requirements and safeguards of the laws and the Constitution have been met, are we comfortable 
with technical design decisions that result in barriers to obtaining evidence of a crime? 

The debate so far has been a challenging and highly charged discussion, but one that we 
believe is essential to have. This includes a productive and meaningful dialogue on how 
encryption as currently implemented poses real barriers to law enforcement’s ability to seek 
information in specific cases of possible national security threat. Mr. Chairman, we believe that 
the challenges posed by the Going Dark problem are grave, growing, and extremely complex. At 
the outset, it is important to emphasize that we believe that there is no one-size-fits-all strategy 
that will ensure progress. All involved must continue to ensure that citizens’ legitimate privacy 

3 - 


interests can be effectively secured, including through robust technology and legal protections. 
We must continue the current public debate about how best to ensure that privacy and security 
can co-exist and reinforce each other, and continue to consider all of the legitimate concerns at 
play, including ensuring that law enforcement can keep us safe. 

4 - 


Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Director Comey. We’ll now proceed 
under the 5-minute rule with questions for the witness, and I’ll 
begin by recognizing myself. 

Director, there has been quite a bit of debate on the govern- 
ment’s reliance on the All Writs Act, which most people had never 
heard of until the last week or so. That is being used in this case 
to try to compel Apple to bypass the auto erase functions on the 
phone. It has been characterized as an antiquated statute dating 
back to 1789, that was never intended to empower the courts to re- 
quire a third party to develop new technology. 

How do you respond to that characterization? Has the FBI relied 
on the Act in the past to gain access to iPhones or other similar 
devices, and is the Act limited to the circumstances in which Con- 
gress has already imposed a statutory duty on a third party to pro- 
vide assistance? 

Mr. Comey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I smile a little bit when 
I hear that, because old doesn’t mean bad, at least I hope it doesn’t, 
because I’m rapidly approaching that point. The Constitution is as 
old or older than the All Writs Act, and I think that’s still a pretty 
useful document. 

It’s a tool that I use. I think there’s some Members of the Com- 
mittee who are former Federal prosecutors. Every assistant U.S. 
Attorney knows it. I used it when I started as an AUSA in 1987. 
It is an Act that Congress passed when the Constitution was a 
baby, so there was a vehicle for judges to get their orders complied 
with. And it’s been used many, many, many times, and interpreted 
by the courts many times, including by the Supreme Court. 

The cases at hand are simply about, as I understand it, what is 
the reach of the All Writs Act. It’s still good law, but how far does 
it extend, especially given how technology has changed. And I 
think the courts are going to sort that out. There was a decision 
yesterday in New York, there will be decisions in California. There 
will probably be lots of others, because this is a problem law en- 
forcement is seeing all over the country. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Let me ask you about that decision in New 
York, because in its brief in the California case, Apple argues that 
a provision of CALEA, another Federal statute, actually prohibits 
the magistrate from ordering it to design a means to override the 
auto erase functions on the phone. Just yesterday, a magistrate in 
New York upheld that argument. Can you comment on that? 

Mr. Comey. Not in an intelligent way, because I haven’t read the 
decision out of New York. I understand the basic contours of the 
argument. I don’t fully get it, honestly, because CALEA is about 
data in motion, and this is about data at rest, but I also think this 
is the kind of thing judges do. They take acts of Congress and try 
to understand, so what does it mean, especially given changing cir- 
cumstances. So I expect it’ll be bumpy, there will be lots of lawyers 
paid for lots of hours of work, but we will get to a place where we 
have the courts with an understanding of its reach. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Now, if the FBI is successful in requiring Apple 
to unlock this phone, that won’t really be a one-time request, cor- 

Mr. Comey. Well, the issue of locked phones certainly not, be- 
cause it’s become a 


Mr. Goodlatte. It will set a precedent for other requests from 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation and any other law enforcement 
agency to seek the same assistance in many, many, many other 

Mr. CoMEY. Sure, potentially, because any decision of a court 
about a matter is potentially useful to other courts, which is what 
a precedent is. I happen to think, having talked to experts, there 
are technical limitations to how useful this particular San 
Bernardino technique will be, given how the phones have changed, 
but sure, other courts, other prosecutors, other lawyers for compa- 
nies will look to that for guidance or to try and distinguish it. 

Mr. Goodlatte. So that technology once developed, which I pre- 
sume they could destroy again, but then will have to recreate hun- 
dreds of times, how confident are you — whichever procedure Apple 
decided to pursue, how confident are you that what you are re- 
questing, which is the creation effectively of a key, a code, how con- 
fident are you that will remain secure and allow all the other cus- 
tomers of Apple, and when this is applied to other companies’ tech- 
nology as well, how confident are you that it will not fall into the 
wrong hands and make everyone’s communication devices less se- 
cure, not more secure? 

Mr. CoMEY. First, I’ve got to quibble a little bit with the premise 
of your question. I hear people talk about keys or backdoors. I actu- 
ally don’t see that this way. I mean, there are issues about 
backdoors. This is about — there’s already a door on that iPhone. 
Essentially we’re asking Apple, take the vicious guard dog away; 
let us try and pick the lock. The later phones, as I understand the 
6 and after, there aren’t doors, so there isn’t going to be, can you 
take the guard dog away and let us pick the lock. 

But, look, I have a lot of faith, and maybe I don’t know them well 
enough, in the company’s ability to secure their information. The 
iCloud, for example, is not encrypted, right, but I don’t lie awake 
at night worrying about whether they’re able to protect the con- 
tents of the iCloud. They are very, very good at protecting their in- 
formation and their innovation. So no thing is for certain, but I 
think these folks are pros. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes the 
Ranking Member, Mr. Conyers, for his questions. 

Mr. Conyers. Thank you. Chairman Goodlatte. And welcome, 
again, to our forum here, a very regular visitor to the Judiciary 

Director Comey, it’s been suggested that Apple has no interest in 
helping law enforcement in any criminal case and that the com- 
pany cares more about marketing than about investigating a ter- 
rorist attack. In your view, are companies like Apple generally co- 
operative when the FBI asks for assistance accompanied by appro- 
priate legal process? Did Apple assist with this particular inves- 

Mr. Comey. I think, in general, all American companies, and I 
can’t think of an exception sitting here, want to be helpful, espe- 
cially when it comes to public safety, because they have families 
and children just as we do, so that’s the attitude we’re met with. 

And in this particular case, as in many others, Apple was helpful 
to us. We had lots of good conversations about what we might be 


able to do to get this device open, and we got to place where they 
said, for reasons that I don’t question their motive, we’re not will- 
ing to go further, and the government made a decision, we still 
have an avenue to pursue with the judge. We’ll go to the judge. But 
I don’t question their motives. 

Mr. Conyers. All right. Thank you. I sense that you’re still re- 
luctant to speak about how your success in this case might set a 
precedent for future actions. You indicated last week that this liti- 
gation may guide how other courts handle similar requests. Could 
you elaborate on that, please? 

Mr. CoMEY. Sure. There’s no — first of all, let me say this. I’ve 
been trying to explain to people, this case in San Bernardino is 
about this case. And the reason I’ve tried to say that so much pub- 
licly is, I worry very much about the pain, frankly, to the victims 
in this case when they see this matter that’s so important to them 
becoming a vehicle for a broader conversation. So I want to make 
sure that everybody, especially the FBI, remains grounded in the 
fact this is about that case. My wife has a great expression she 
uses to help me be a better person, which is, “It’s not about you. 

This case in San Bernardino is not about the FBI, it’s not about 
Apple, it not about Congress, it’s not about anything other than 
trying to do a competent investigation in an ongoing, active case. 
That said, of course, any decision by a judge in any forum is going 
to be potentially precedential in some other forum; not binding, but 
guidance, either positive or against. The government lost the case 
yesterday in Brooklyn. We could lose the case in San Bernardino, 
and it will be used as precedent against the government. That’s 
just the way the law works, which I happen to think is a good 

Mr. Conyers. Thank you. If you succeed in this case, will the 
FBI return to the courts in future cases to demand that Apple and 
other private companies assist you in unlocking secure devices? 

Mr. CoMEY. Potentially, yes. If the All Writs Act is available to 
us and the relief under the All Writs Act as explained by the courts 
fits the powers of the statute, of course. 

Mr. Conyers. And, finally, I think we can acknowledge, then, 
that this case will set some precedent, and if you succeed, you will 
have won the authority to access encrypted devices, at least for 
now. Given that you’ve asked us to provide you with that authority 
since taking your position at the Bureau, and given that Congress 
has explicitly denied you that authority so far, can you appreciate 
our frustration that this case appears to be little more than an end 
run around this Committee? 

Mr. Comey. I really can’t, Mr. Conyers. First of all, I don’t recall 
a time when I’ve asked for a particular legislative fix. In fact, the 
Administration’s position has been they’re not seeking legislation 
at this time. But I also — we’re investigating a horrific terrorist at- 
tack at San Bernardino. There’s a phone that’s unlocked that be- 
longed to one of the killers. The All Writs Act that we’ve used since 
I was a boy, we think is a reasonable argument to have the court 
use the All Writs Act to direct the company to open that phone. 
That’s what this is about. If I didn’t do that, I ought to be fired, 


I can also understand your frustration at the broader conversa- 
tion, because it goes way beyond this case. This case will be re- 
solved by the courts. It does not solve the problem we’re all here 
wrestling with. 

Mr. Conyers. I thank the Director, and I yield back any unused 
time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you. And the Chair recognizes the gen- 
tleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a statement from 
the Application Developers Alliance here that I’d like to have in- 
cluded in the record. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection, it will be made a part of the 

[The information referred to follows:] 


f Application / 

\ Developers^ 

[ Alliance J 

Government Mandates to Weaken Encryption: A Threat to 
Democracy, Capitalism, and Security 

U.S. House of Representatives 
Committee on the judiciary 

"The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans' Security and Privacy" 

March 1,2016 

The Application Developers Alliance (the "Alliance") welcomes and appreciates the opportunity to 
submit a statement for the Committee on the judiciary's (the "Committee") hearing titled "The 
Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy." Consumers want their personal 
data protected, and businesses want their confidential data protected however, cyberhackers and 
data thieves are a constant threat to security. For several years, law enforcement and consumer 
protection officials have helped grow the data protection marketplace by using enforcement tools 
to require consumer data be protected. Responding appropriately to these marketplace and 
government forces, digital industry developers regularly create encryption tools to ensure that 
consumers' personal information and private communications remain private. 

This statement serves to share with the Committee the challenges that software developers and our 
digital industry partners will face if we try to both protect privacy and provide privacy-breaching 
special access like backdoors, decryption, and other methods to the government. Technology 
experts have and will continue to address the technological impossibility of creating software 
vulnerabilities that only the most well-intentioned can access. This statement will address the 
resulting investment uncertainty, consumer mistrust, and business turbulence developers in small- 
and medium-sized enterprises will face if forced to comply with demands similar to the court order 
handed down by judge Sheri Pym. 

When this hearing concludes, the privacy vs. security debate will continue. The Alliance urges 
Congress to be reflective, not reactive, in its approach, carefully considering the consequences to 
poking holes in encryption. In today's digital marketplace, Americans near and far rely on the 
security of their software to make purchases, establish connections, and store sensitive data. Any 
hasty, short-sighted decision will destroy the Internet-driven economy as we know it 

1015 7* Sircrt NW. Second Floor | Washington, IK 20001 


The Application Developers Alliance (the "Alliance"] was founded in January 2012 to support 
developers as entrepreneurs, innovators, and creators. Alliance membership includes more than 
150 companies and an additional 65,000 individuals. 

On behalf of the app industry and our innovative, entrepreneurial members, the Committee should 
consider the following: 

1. A government mandate, like the order handed down by Judge Pym on February 16, 2016, 
which would force Apple to deliberately compromise software security, runs counter to 
American ideals, sets a dangerous precedent for judges in other cases to point to. and is a 
threat to consumers' and the nation's best interests. 

2. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), State Attorneys General, the FBI, privacy advocates 
and consumers are correct; protecting data while using it to build exciting new products 
and .services is unquestionably good for and consumers. The entire software 
ecosystem is committed to both data innovation and data protection. 

3. Software developers compete in a global marketplace and the products they create are used 
around the world. If developers are required to provide special access to the U.S. 
government, then many other governments will require similar access, and still other 
governments will cite this access as evidence of non-compliance with their national privacy 
laws. ln.stead of enjoying global digital opportunities, developers will be buffeted by 
conflicting laws and false choices that pose significant financial and legal risk. Developers 
and their customers will have to choose between compliance and market access. 

4. Privacy-breaching special access makes software inherently less secure and less 
trustworthy. By providing access to one or more governments, the developer is creating a 
vulnerability that can be exploited by hackers, thieves, terrorists, and other criminals. Data 
protection prevents cybercrime and identity theft; encryption is the best data protection 
tool we have. Encryption proponents are not weighing privacy and civil liberties above 



security. Instead, we recognize that enhanced security and crime prevention techniques 
require strong data protection. 

Today's Privacy vs. Law Enforcement Debate is Not New; Curbing Government Overreach 
since the Eighteenth Century 

Like many policy debates spawned by technological advances, today’s encryption debate is like a 
new cover version of an old song. America's privacy vs. law enforcement debate began with the 
country’s inception more than 200 years ago. Knowing that privacy is a vital piece of any well- 
functioning democratic society, our nation’s Founding Fathers enshrined this ideal in our 
Constitution with the Fourth Amendment - protection from unreasonable searches and seizures. 

After two centuries, some in the law enforcement community are still searching for cracks to 
exploit in our privacy foundation. In today's global, digital marketplace, and consumers 
are technologically savvy and smart about data protection. Almost daily, Americans see companies 
of all stripes and sizes hacked by cybercriminals and experience their own identity theft horrors. In 
fact, identity theft has been the top consumer complaint to the FTC for fifteen consecutive years. 

Moreover, revelations that some in the U.S. national security and law enforcement communities 
employed widespread, untargeted bulk surveillance are .still fresh in the minds of consumers and 
businesses. Mass surveillance, and its seemingly willful disdain for proper legal process, has made 
citizens justifiably skeptical of law enforcement promises that unfettered access to digital networks 
will be utilized judiciously. In contrast, international governments require U.S. companies ensure 
that international consumer and business data is adequately protected, including the U.S. 
government. In 2016, Americans rightly demand that their data remain secure and private. 

Encryption is no longer a niche market, just 20 years ago, there were few digital products and 
services, and the market for encryption was small and specialized. Today, our hardware contains a 
slew of innovative software and other features like messaging apps, social media, cameras, video 
and voice recorders, not to mention telephones. Each of these innovative features may incorporate 
encryption to ensure that private data remains private. This privacy is also critical for business and 



enterprise software to secure for example, intellectual property, financial information, and health 
care data. 

As a result of this global focus on trust and security, many businesses are bundling encryption with 
products and services and are working to improve those offerings. Venture capitalists and 
institutional investors are betting heavily on secure trust-based business models, while computer 
scientists are building better systems that provide more privacy and security value - developments 
that businesses and consumers concerned about cyberthieves and identity theft eagerly await. 

Yet, against this trend in favor of privacy and security, the FBI and other law enforcement entities 
are attacking and seeking vulnerabilities in encryption technologies that are protected by the 
Fourth Amendment. Law enforcement has an obvious and substantial interest in prosecuting crime 
and protecting people, but creating software vulnerabilities that will enable more identity theft and 
cause more consumer harm is not the right solution. 

Todav^s Privacy vs. Law Enforcement Debate Could Have Severe and Lasting Implications for 

the Digital Marketplace 

In light of the ubiquity of digital products and sei'vices, and the magnitude of cybercrime and 
identity theft, it is perplexing that the FBI and others in law enforcement are disparaging the very 
large, substantial, and determined encryption market that it has encouraged. Their efforts cut prevailing wisdom and send confusing, unhelpful mixed messages to developers and the 
publishers and enterprises they work with. 

First, government mandates to developers to build software vulnerabilities against their will and 
self-interest is alarming and sets a dangerous precedent These mandates, such as the one ordered 
by Judge Pym, are reflexive and exhibit a misunderstanding of what is and is not in consumers’ — 
and the nation’s — best interest. Apple CEO Tim Cook was correct to say his company would not 
comply with the order to create software to deliberately undermine the security of an iPhone. The 
software, which does not currently exist, could be stolen or replicated by bad actors to gain access 
to the private and sensitive information of innocent civilians. Even more troubling is the thought 



that others in the law enforcement community, say a district attorney in New York, could force a 
small enterprise to create similar software to gain access to a phone for a routine drug 
investigation. In Apple’s case, the company may have the time, finances, and human capital to 
comply with the order should it choose to do so. A small business however, absolutely does not 
have the resources to comply with such mandates. Judge Pym's mandate would be nothing short of 
a final blow for many small enterprises. 

Additionally, the government's mixed messages on the issue of encryption could paralyze 
developers in their business cycle. As developers, investors and customers ask which government 
agency is in charge and whether data protection is really a government-approved value, the 
marketplace can freeze up. If this uncertainty continues for too long then lawyers will have to help 
developers make a difficult and perhaps pyrrhic decision: which federal mandate should I follow 
and which one should I ignore? 

Over the course of several years virtually every government law enforcement and consumer 
protection agency has sung from the encryption and data protection hymnal. 

• The FTC advises consumers that "[ejnciyption is the key to keeping your personal 
information secure online," and consistently requires app developers to use "reasonable" 
data security practices, including encryption, to protect consumers' information from 
hackers and data thieves. 

• California Attorney General Kamala Harris recommends that developers "transmit user data 
securely, using encryption" and endorses legislation "requiring encryption to protect 
personal information in transit." 

• In N ev ada, lawmakers have mandated the use of encryption to protect personal 

• In Massachusetts, companies are strongly encouraged to encrypt and protect the data of 
individuals within the state. If the data is compromised, companies would be subject to 
significant penalties. 

• In Rhode Island , breach notification laws now codify an enciyption requirement. A "breach 
of the security system" occurs when there is "unauthorized access or acquisition of 
unencrypted computerized data,” and an entity must use at least 128-bit encryption. 



• In VVashiiigton, a safe harbor provision exists for companies that protect data with 
encryption. Encryption would exempt covered entities that are .subject to the 
HIPAA/HITECH breach notification requirements or to the Interagency Guidance issued 
pursuant to the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. 

• President Obama's Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies 
recommended that the U.S. Government promote national security hy “fully supporting and 
not undermining" enciyption standards and generally available commercial encryption, and 
"supporting efforts to encourage the greater use of encryption technology for data in transit, 
at rest, in the cloud, and in .storage." 

• And President Obama has personally called on industry to protect Americans’ privacy and 
civii liberties, and prociaimed himself "a strong believer in strong enciyption.... there's no 
scenario in which we don't want really strong encryption." 

• Less than five years ago, the FBI re commended organizations to “encrypt data so the hacker 
can't read it." 

Industry has already come up with the correct response. Hardware manufacturers are selling 
encrypted Blackphones. Companies such as Apple, Google, and Yahoo are embedding encryption 
into their software and operating. sy.stem.s. Mes.saging .software, like Yik Yak and SpiderOak, are 
offering encrypted consumer solutions. And industries like banking, healthcare, transportation and 
manufacturing are extremely focused on secure, encrypted solutions. Cloud storage companies like 
SurDoc are already taking legi.slative cues and Industry norms to heart by encrypting data in 
transit and at rest. Many other companies, e.specially small- and medium-sized enterprises continue 
to wait for further guidance and clarity from lawmakers before investing significant resources in 
this important technology. 

Third, nearly every software developer is pursuing international customers. Thus, it is important 
that Congress consider other countries’ reactions to U.S. digital policy and how other countries' 
policies could create challenges to American digital services or America's global interests. 

By demanding unfettered access to digital products and services, the FBI is putting American 
companies' international opportunities at risk. European and South American policymakers have 
virulently criticized U.S. Government collection of European citizens' and leaders' communications 


data, and many have demanded that U.S. companies provide assurances that their products and 
services are not susceptible to U.S. Government hacking. Leading European policymakers have 
repeatedly urged more robust European consumer privacy laws, stating forthrightly that this is 
intended to harm U.S. digital semces and advantage European services. Mandating privacy- 
breaching special access increases the that international governments will cite U.S. companies' 
non-compliance with privacy laws to justify banning American digital products and services from 
doing business in their country. Compounding this problem are governments - for example Russia, 
China and some in South America - that are choosing to only do business with companies based in 
their own country. 

The Application Developers Alliance is a global organization and our European and American 
members are equally optimistic about our industiy, consumer adoption and economic 
opportunity. None of our members - anywhere in the world - desire a trade war that divides the 
global Internet and global opportunity Into smaller sub.sets of national markets. But if Congress 
requires U.S. companies to provide special access for FBI or others, it should anticipate European 
policymakers to respond emphatically. Mandatory privacy-breaching special access will instigate 
trade wars and exacerbate international business challenges. 

Special like what the FBI is .seeking diminishes consumer trust and creates challenges for 
developers and all digital businesses. In addition to government risk, developers will face 
marketplace challenges if forced to provide privacy-breaching special access to law 
enforcement. Our customers - in the United State.s and abroad - expect their communications to be 
private and secure when purcha.sing or using .software. Since our sector's inception, developers 
have prioritized the security and handling of their customers' data because they know that good 
data stewardship is critical to business success. Enabling governments to access data and ignoring 
future technological risks undermining the customer trust that developers worked hard to obtain. 

Congress should also anticipate that governments worldwide will demand their own special access 
for their own security and law enforcement interests. This will increase further the risk that 
consumer and business data could be compromised. Larger companies might have the resources to 
build-in the required special access and might have enough consumer trust to withstand the 
associated scrutiny, but startups and resource-strapped small innovators will be challenged to find 



resources to build multiple backdoors^ and will also have greater trust problems than established 
competitors. Of course, all software not complying with other governments' demands could easily 
be locked out of those markets. 

What is more, repressive regimes around the world might point to our own government's request 
for special access as leverage to curb privacy and free speech in their countries. Software like social 
media is ushering in a radical new paradigm where anyone, regardless of economic status, creed, 
or race can speak out and shed light on wrongdoings. It would be unjust and immoral for the U.S. 
Government to give any leverage to repressive governments who do not share our democratic 

Fourth, from a technical standpoint, any opening in security creates a vulnerable access point for 
hackers, thieve.s, and foreign governments t() exploit While the FBI would have us believe that law 
enforcement alone will be privy to our sensitive data, histoiy demonstrates that bad actors will 
always be ahead of the curve and find an avenue to manipulate those openings. As one well- 
regarded cryptographer .said - “you can't build a backdoor that only the good guys can walk 

Currently, consumers read about data breaches on an almost daily basi.s. Though the market is 
demanding tighter security measures, there are only two types of companies in the world: those 
that have been breached and Chose that do not know they have been breached. Consumers expect 
businesses to re.spond to these breaches and many have bolstered their security features, 
oftentimes through encryption. Requiring companies to create special access undermines 
consumers’ and businesses’ desires to secure data in storage, in transit, and across the supply chain. 
End-to-end encryption is the only way to secure user data from all outside forces while 
simultaneously giving consumers greater control of their data. 

Forcing holes in software security harms .startups and .small innovators the most. Many - perhaps 
most - of the small companies that are Alliance members lack the resources to create specific 
access point for the right people, let alone the right people in select countries. While the U.S. 
government is pleading to tech companies "let us in,” they simultaneously warn companies to keep 
hackers and other countries out. Because providing special access it technically challenging and 



very expensive, it is extremely difficult for large companies, let alone startups, to meet these 
conflicting demands. Developers and startups already must overcome significant cost hurdles 
before products get to market, and any regulatory inconsistency or redundancy is one burden too 

4c ♦ * * * 

In closing, the Alliance urges Congress to remember that encryption technologies are a market 
response to consumer demands, business needs, and U.S. and international government 
recommendations to protect consumer data. When a developer builds a thriving business model 
around privacy, security, and consumer trust, only to be told the FBI wants your products to be 
secure, hut not too secure, this disrupts the marketplace. It is bad for innovation, bad for business 
and bad for consumers. It is only good for hackers and cyberthieves who prey on private consumer 
data and commercially sensitive data. 

Americans correctly demand that their personal data is .secure. as importantly, businesses 
deserve support from lawmakers to ensure that these protection technologies grow to become the 
industry norm in a stable marketplace. The Alliance is happy to address any questions and looks 
forward to working with Congress on this very important issue. 



Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And, Director Comey, like yourself, I happen to he a graduate of 
the College of William & Mary, so I’m going to start off with a 
tough question. Anything nice you’d like to say about the College 
of William & Mary? 

Mr. Comey. I could tell there with glow coming from your seat. 
That’s explained by your being a member of the Tribe. Best thing 
ever happened to me besides — I actually met my wife there. That’s 
the best thing that ever happened to me. Second best is that I was 

Mr. Chabot. Excellent. Yes, it’s a great place to go. There are 
two members currently. Ms. Titus of Nevada is also a graduate. 

Now, this hearing is about electronic data security, or as you de- 
scribe it 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair is happy to extend additional time to 
the gentleman for recognizing an important Virginia educational 

Mr. Chabot. I appreciate the Chairman. 

And as is already indicated, this is about electronic data security 
or, as you described it, keeping our stuff online private. So I’d like 
to ask you this, and it may seem a little off topic, but I don’t think 
it is. 

A few weeks back, the FBI’s general counsel, James Baker, ac- 
knowledged that the FBI is “working on matters related to former 
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server.” 
And then the White House press secretary. Josh Earnest, stated 
that “some officials over there,” referring to the FBI, “had said that 
Hillary Clinton is not a target of this investigation, and that it’s 
not trending in that direction.” And the President then weighed in, 
even though he apparently had never been briefed on the matter, 
commenting that he didn’t see any national security implications in 
Hillary’s emails, and obviously, this is a matter of considerable im- 

Is there anything that you can tell us as to when this matter 
might be wrapped up one way or the other? 

Mr. Comey. I can’t. Congressman. As you know, we don’t talk 
about our investigations. What I can assure you is that I am very 
close personally to that investigation to ensure that we have the re- 
sources we need, including people and technology, and that it’s 
done the way the FBI tries to do all of its work: independently, 
competently, and promptly. That’s our goal, and I’m confident it’s 
being done that way, but I can’t give you any more details beyond 

Mr. Chabot. I certainly understand, and I appreciate that. I 
thought you might say that, but you can’t blame me for trying. Let 
me move on. 

If Apple chose to comply with the government’s demand, maybe 
it does have the technical expertise and time and finances to create 
such a vulnerability so we can get in and get that information. But 
let me ask you, what about a small business? I happen to be the 
Chairman of the House Small Business Committee. Wouldn’t such 
a mandate to, say, a small company, a startup, say, with, you 
know, four or five, six employees, wouldn’t that be a huge burden 
on a small business to have to comply with this sort of thing? 


Mr. COMEY. I think it might he, and that’s one of the factors that 
I understand the courts consider in passing on an All Writs Act re- 
quest, the burden to the private actor, how much it would cost 
them, how much time and effort? And I think Apple’s argument in 
this case is, it would take us a ton of effort, time, and money to 
do it, and so that’s one of the reasons we shouldn’t be compelled 
to do it. So it’s a consideration built into the judicial interpretations 
of the Act. 

Mr. Chabot. Thank you. As the Chair of the Committee, we’d 
ask you certainly to consider how this could affect — ^you know, 
seven out of 10 new jobs created in the economy are small business 
folks; half of the people employed in this country in the private sec- 
tor are small businesses, and I think we should always consider 
them. Let me move on to something else. 

In his testimony from our December 2015 hearing about H.R. 
699, the Email Privacy Act, Richard Littlehale, the Assistant Spe- 
cial Agent in charge of Criminal Investigation Division of the Ten- 
nessee Bureau of Investigations, voiced a frustration with the in- 
creasing technological capabilities of both criminals and noncrimi- 

Rather than trying to arguably infringe on the Fourth Amend- 
ment rights of all Americans, would it b^e possible to better train 
our law enforcement officers and equip them to keep up with this 
changing world that we’re discussing today? 

Mr. CoMEY. Well, there’s no doubt that we have to continue to 
invest in training so that all of our folks are digitally literate and 
able to investigate in that way. The problem we face here is all of 
our lives are on these devices, which is why it’s so important that 
they be private, but that also means all of criminals’ and 
pedophiles’ and terrorists’ lives are on these devices, and if they 
can’t — if they’re warrant-proof, even a judge can’t order access to 
a device, that is a big problem. I don’t care how good the cop is, 
I don’t care how good the agent is, that is a big problem. So that, 
we can’t quite train our way around. 

Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much. I’m always almost out of 
time so let me concludes with, go Tribe. Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from New York, Mr. Nadler, for 

Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Since we’ve gone a little far afield here, 
let me do so again very briefly to point out that, among others, 
Thomas Jefferson, who, among his minor accomplishments, was the 
Founder of the Democratic Party, was also a graduate of William 
& Mary. 

Mr. Chabot. True. 

Mr. Nadler. Mr. Comey, Director Comey, the attack — well, we’re 
all certainly very condemning of the terrorist attack in San 
Bernardino, and we all — our hearts go out to the families and vic- 
tims of that. I commend the FBI for everything you’ve done to in- 
vestigate this matter. Now, the two terrorists are dead and another 
coconspirator, the neighbor, is in jail. You have used the USA Free- 
dom Act to track their phone calls and invest — which this Com- 
mittee wrote last year — to track their phone calls and investigate 
everyone they ever spoke to on that phone. The FBI has done a 
great job already. Now, let me ask a few questions. 


It’s my understanding that the — that we have found that the at- 
tack in San Bernardino was not, in any way, planned or coordi- 
nated by ISIS. Is that correct? It may have been inspired by, but 
not directed or planned by. 

Mr. CoMEY. Right. So far as we know, correct. 

Mr. Nadler. And have you eliminated any connection between 
the two suspects and any overseas terrorist organization? 

Mr. COMEY. Eliminated any? We have not 

Mr. Nadler. Have you seen any evidence of any, is a better way 
of putting it? 

Mr. CoMEY. We have not seen any evidence of that. 

Mr. Nadler. Okay. Now, given those facts — so there’s no evi- 
dence of any coordination with anybody else, that’s the two home- 
grown, self-motivated, perhaps inspired-by-ISIS terrorists. Now, 
the investigators seized the iPhone in question on December 3; the 
FBI reached out to Apple for assistance on December 5. Apple 
started providing the FBI with information, with account informa- 
tion, I gather, the same day, but then the next day, on December 
6, at the instruction of the FBI, San Bernardino County changed 
the password to the iCloud account associated with that device. 
They did so without consulting Apple, at the instruction or sugges- 
tion of the FBI. And changing that password foreclosed the possi- 
bility of an automatic backup that would allowed Apple to provide 
you with this information without bypassing its own security, and 
thus necessitating, in the first place, the application to the court 
that you made and that we’re discussing today. In other words, if 
the FBI hadn’t instructed San Bernardino County to change the 
password to the iCloud account, all of this would have been unnec- 
essary, and you would have had that information. So my question 
is, why did the FBI do that? 

Mr. COMEY. I have to — first of all, I want to choose my words 
very, very carefully. I said there is no evidence of direction from 
overseas terrorist organizations. This is a live investigation. I can’t 
say much more beyond that. This investigation is not over, and I 
worry that embedded in your question was — and that you under- 
stood me to be saying that. 

Second, I do think, as I understand it from the experts, there 
was a mistake made in that 24 hours after the attack where the 
County, at the FBI’s request, took steps that made it hard — impos- 
sible later to cause the phone to back up again to the iCloud. The 
experts have told me I’d still be sitting here, I was going to say un- 
fortunately, not unfortunately, fortunately. I’m glad I’m here, but 
we would still be in litigation, because, the experts tell me, there’s 
no way we would have gotten everything off the phone from a 
backup. I have to take them at their word. But that part of your 
premise of your question is accurate. 

Mr. Nadler. Okay. So the second part of my question is, it 
wasn’t until almost 50 days later on January 22 when you served 
the warrant. Given the allegedly critical nature of this information, 
why did it take the FBI 50 days to go to court? 

Mr. COMEY. I think there were a whole lot of conversations going 
on in that interim with companies, with other parts of the govern- 
ment, with other resources to figure out if there was a way to do 
it short of having to go to court. 


Mr. Nadler. Okay. Thank you. Now, can you offer a specific 
case, because I do think we all understand that it’s not just a spe- 
cific case, it will have widespread implications in law, and however 
the courts resolve this, which is essentially a statutory interpreta- 
tion case, the buck is going to stop here at some point, we’re going 
to be asked to change the law. 

So encryption software is free, open source, and widely available. 
If Congress were to pass a law forcing U.S. companies to provide 
law enforcement with access to encrypted systems, would that law 
stop bad actors from using their own encryption? 

Mr. CoMEY. It would not. 

Mr. Nadler. It would not. So the bad actors would just get 
around it? 

Mr. CoMEY. Sure. Encryption’s always been available to bad ac- 
tors, nation states 

Mr. Nadler. So if we were to pass a law saying that Apple and 
whoever else had to put backdoors, or whatever you want to call 
them, into their systems, the bad actors that were — and with all 
the appropriate — with all the — not appropriate, all the concomitant 
surrenders of privacy, et cetera, et cetera, the bad actors could eas- 
ily get around that by making their own encryption systems? 

Mr. COMEY. The reason I’m hesitating is I think we’re mixing to- 
gether two things: data in motion and data at rest. The bad guys 
couldn’t make their own phones, but the bad guys could always try 
and find a device that was strongly encrypted. 

The big change here happened in the fall of 2014 when the com- 
pany split from available encryption to default, and that’s 

Mr. Nadler. Yeah. But couldn’t 

Mr. COMEY [continuing]. That’s the shadow of going dark 

Mr. Nadler. But couldn’t foreign companies and bad actors gen- 
erally do that, whatever we said? 

Mr. CoMEY. Sure. Potentially people could say, I love this Amer- 
ican device, but because I worry about a judge ordering access to 
it. I’m going to buy this phone from a Nordic country that’s dif- 
ferent in some way. That could happen. I have a hard time seeing 
it happen a lot, but it could happen. 

Mr. Nadler. My time has expired. Thank you. 

Mr. ISSA. Mr. Chairman, I’d like to ask unanimous consent some 
documents be placed in the record at this time. I’d like to ask 
unanimous consent that Patent Number 0240732, patent 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection. 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you. Additionally, 27353, another patent; addi- 
tionally, a copy of the USA Today entitled, “Ex-NSA Chief Backs 
Apple On iPhone;” additionally, from Science and Technology, an 
article that says, “Department of Homeland Security awards $2.2 
million to Malibu, California, company for mobile security research 
and, in other words, an encryption-proof, unbreakable phone;” addi- 
tionally and lastly, the article in Politico today on the New York 
judge’s ruling in favor of Apple. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection, they will all be made a part 
of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 



( 19 ) United States 

(12) Patent Application Publication (lo) Pub. No.: US 2015/0027353 Al 
Sagebiel (43) Pub. Date: Jan. 29, 2015 

(52) U.S. Cl. 

CPC ... E05G 1/10 {ion. 0\)\E05G 1/14 (20nm) 
USPC 109/24: 109/23; 109,/36; 109/38 


Active containers and related systems configured for destroy- 
ing container conlcnls may include safes with a hardened 
storage space, a content destruction element configured to 
destroy material contained in the storage space, and an arm- 
ing device. The conlenL deslmclion element may include, for 
example, an incendiaiy', an explosive, a liquid, a gas, a magnet 
and'or an electrical source. The arming devdee may be con- 
figured to arm and initiate the content destruction element 
using various modes, wliiclimay be based on different arming 
criteria and firing criteria. The arming criteria and'or the 
firii^ criteria may include movement of the container, accel- 
eration, penetration of the container, elapsed Time, ananning 
signal, as well as an explicit firing signal. The container may 
include various sensors to assist in making relevant determi- 
nations, suchasapositioning system, an accclcromctcr, a heat 
sensor, a pressure sensor, etc. 

(54) .■\cti\t: safe 

(71) Applicant: TenCate Advanced Armor USA, Inc., 

Nev^^ark, Oil (US) 

(72) Inventor: Erick James Sagebiel. Castrovillc, TX 


(21) .Appl.No.: 14/444,449 

(22) riled: Jul. 28, 2014 

Related U.S. Application Data 

(60) Provisional application No. 61/858.724, filed on Jul. 
26, 2013. 

Publication Classiticatioii 

(51) Int.a. 

E05G 7/10 (2006.01 ) 

E05G1/14 (2006.01) 



Ex-NSA chief backs Apple on iPhone ‘back doors’ 



n:39p.m. 3016 

McLEAN. VA— Retired four-eter general Michael Hayden, whose director of the HSA installed arwl still 
defends the controversial survei9ar>ce program to collect telephone metadata on miHions of Americarts. says 
he opposes proposals to force Apple arxl other tech companies to install "back doors* m digital devices to 
help law enforcement 

In an emerging court battle over access to informabon on the iPhone owned by one of the San Bemardmo 
attackers. Hayden says the burden of proof is on Apple* to show that limSed cooperation with 
(Ptato JtspmCoo uSM) irrvesbgstors would open the door to broader privacy irwasions Apple ia being asked not to 

decrypt mformsbon on the smartphone but rather to override the operating system so nvestigalors coiid try 
an endless series of passwords to unlock it. 

*ln this specrfic case, I'm trending toward the government, but IVe got to tell you in general 1 oppose the goverrment's effort, personified by FBI 
Director Jm Comey.* Hayden told Capital Download in an interview about hia memoir. Ptaying to tha £dga Amahcan Intaihgenca m tha Aga of 
Terror "Jan would like a back door available to American law enforcement in all devices globally And. frankly. I thmk on balance that aclualy harms 
American safety and security, even though it might make Jen's |0b a bd easier m some speciftc ctreumsisnees * 

In a statement released late Sunday. Comey said the San Bernardino ligation 'isnl about trying to set a pracedeni or send any kind of message It » 
about the vKtims and justice Fourteen people were slaughtered and many more had thair hves and bod«a runed Vito owe them a thorough and 
professional nvestigabon under law. Thafs what this is. The American people should expect nothmg fees from the FBI * 



CQQitQl Download • Convefsotioos win Woshmaton s 





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bcmflnltno.m honc/807863»4/) 

Hayden. 70. brings unparsllelsd credentials to the roiling debate The retired Av Force geriersi is the only person ever to head both the super>secrel 
National Securdy ^ency and the Central Intelligence Agency In tua 446-page memo*, published Tuesday by Penguin Press, he recaHa bemg at the 
NSAon Sept 11. 2001. when Al Qaeda attacked the WbrM Trade Center and the Pentagon He led theCIAdurmg firestorms over its delention and 
imerrogation of terror suspects, and whie targeted kdings by drones grew 

The title of the book — on the jacket, even the words bfeed to the edge — refers to his conclusion that intelligence officials should play so close to the 
ine that they get chak dust on the* cfests *lt's uriapologetic.'' he says of his account of tha dec«ion-making behirid drone attacks, the use of 
waterboardirvg and other interrogation techniques, the imelligenoe feilures m the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq, and the culture of America's 
espionage ageric«s 

Ail that makes his conclusion that privacy concerns should triMnp aecurdy demands on this issue — putting h*n on iht side of libertaran Sen Rand 
Paul and fugitive NSAcontractor Edward Snowden — especially powerful 

Afederal Oisirict Court judge m California last week ordered Apple to bypass secunly barriers on the iPhoneSc that had been used by Syed Rowan 
Farook, who with his wifa killed 14 people at an office hokday party in December In a defiani public fetter. Apple CEO Tm Cook announced the 
company wouldnl comply Apple argues ths tool mevffabfy would be used not juM in one isolated case but repeatedly 


/. Hi^Ei 


Otn. MtchMl Haytfan's bo«k. 
*niyln9 (o tiM Edg*: Amartcan 
MalHganM In Om Ag» ol 

Th« shiowdown has rsinvigorated proposals for Congrsss lo pass a law that would rsQuira tech companies 
including Apple. Facebook and Google to provide a “liack door” in digital devices so law-enforcement officials 
could access encrypted information dumg investigations The debate has become an issue m the presidential 
campaign Republican frontrunner Donald Trump has called for a boycott of Appte products unless the 
company cooperates with the San Bernardino invest^ators 

‘Look. I used to run the NSA. OK^ Hayden told USA TODAY'S weekly video newsmaker senes ‘Back doors 
are good Please, please, Lord, put back doors in. because I and a whole burich of other talented security 
services around the world — even though that back door was not intended for me — that back door wil make 
it easier for me to do what I want to do. which t% to perieiraie. ... 

‘But when you step back and look at the whole question of American security and safely writ large, we are a 
safer, more secure nation without back doors,' ha says. With them. *a tot of other people would lake 
advantage of it' 

Hayden was interviewed in the bving room of his home in the northern Wgmis suburbs, not for from the CIA, decorated with furndure. artwork and 
mementos from his foreign postings and long career Caniwd cheats from Korea, religious icons from Bulgam, a small oil painting of an outdoor scene 
presented as a gift by the Romanian inleltigenoe service 

Auim men with a crisp mMary bearing. Hayden ts watching wdh some concern the debeie over natmnal eecurity m the 2016 campaign Democratic 
prasidant Bili Clinton appomtad hen to head tha NSA. Rapublican presidani Gaorga W Bush appomtad him to head the CIA (Hayden was an adviear 
to and supporter of former Florida governor Jeb Bush, who suspended hts candidacy Saturday ) 

‘It takes a complex process and tries to capture i In something about tha length of a bumper sbckar,* ha says. ‘Soma candidates say wa should use 
waterboarding and a tot more because they deserve it* a reference to Trump *WbB. we never used any technique against anyone because they 
deserved it. ... The things we did were forward-tookmg. to learn things to protect America 

The same thing with regard to carpat-bombing.* a lactic endorsed by Texas San Tad Cruz against the saff-proctoimed tstomc State ‘Carpet- 
bombing is inharantly anmoral and mworthy of a nation kka oursalvas * 

And ha cals Trump's proposal to ban lamporarily all Muslims from anianng the Uruiad Slates ‘absokiialy not halpfU. mcrsdibly harmfiT In a battle 
against terrorism in which the biggest threat comas from satf-radicahzed individusis liwtg m the United Stales 

*11 goes to the character of us as a nation,* he says lAfs are a welcoming socisly. Wb assrmSate immigrants for better than oia European friends And 
k shows up. R shows up in the fact that moat of these horrific events don't happen here. They happert there. Why would you pul at mk a war-winning 
advantage — i a you are a welcoming aooety? Wfoy would you pul that at nsk by that land of pronoi.mcam«nt? Thai actually » incredibly harmful lo 
American safety — just saying that lhal would be your pokey * 

Heyden also is caustic whan asked about poterkial security breaches from the daosron by Democratic candidate Hilary Cinfon to axduaivaly use of a 
private email server whan she was secretary of State. 

‘Once you've set it up this way. nobody has lo be stupid, lazy, unaitebgent — k's gene bad.* he says 'YouVs going to end up with information on this 
private server that fust shouldnl be Ihere. let atone all the questnns about preserving government records * Those concerns aren't allayed even if no 
clasaified material was sent or recaivad at her privaie address, ha says 

‘How much eriergy would I expend if I were std director of the NalionsI Security Agency arid someone told me I coukJ gel access to the unclassrfied 
emad server of (Russian Foreign Mmtar] Sergei Lavrov'> I'd move heaven and Earth to do that. And hart you've got these private, munate 
conversalione by a senior official of lha U.S. government sitting out there ai what I would cal an unprotected enwonmenl.’ 


The disclosure that Chnion had used the private server was a surprise last year to reporters and others. Does he assume that foreign mteMigence 
agencies long had krwwn about it ar>d targeted i? 

”1 would lose all respect for a whole bunch of foretgn ntebgence agencies if they weren't sittmg back, paging through the emaiie,'' he replwd 

Hayden has had a reputation as a plairvspoken man. and he's no former cor^aned by the senior offices he held m the Air Force, the NSA and the 
CIA Among his commertfs in his interview with Capital Download 

• On whether Amertcans are safer than they were on 9/11 ; ‘That danger level has gone down steadSy (but) here's the sad story I 
thinksince20l2.ihailinehasbeengoingbackup It's the growth of ISIS It's Jihad 2 Ocomng at us a very tough, violerrt enemy 
living in a safe haven the sae of a good-sized ^encan state, not m the mddle of nowhere like Afghanistan, but m the middle of the 
Middle East * 

• On the biggest threat ahead for the United States: ‘For the things that can go bump in the mgN tonight and realy affect us. I pul 
terrorism and cyber attack . Go out three, four, five years m the future, here i begin to worry about states I call ambitious, brittle and 
nuclear Iran. Palostan. North Korea, even the Russans ‘ Ten years n the future, the challenge is Chmi. he said ‘If we don't get our 
relationship with the emerging People's Repubie of Chma right, that is something that could lead to global catastrophe * 

• On the possibility of a plea bargain for fugitive NSA contractor Edward Snowden: *1 pay the American presrdeni who thinks he can 
be lenient on Mr Snowden and believe that would be cost-free amongst the people on which he wil continue to rely on for the safety of 
the nation * 

• On a lesson leamsd from leaks that txposed the NSA's metadata coliacllon of Americans' phone records: 'Wien a comes out 
that way, the natural American instinct is to take that story and run to the darkest corner of the room If we had been more open about 
what we had been doing, a would have counteracted that a ba For want of a better word, it would have immunized our soaety against 
what I viewed as an overreaction to the revelation ' 

• On today's challenge tor intelligence agencies: ‘To be good. American espionege has to be powerful and it has to be aecreiive inside 
a pottical culture that more and more distnjsts two things power arxf secrecy ‘ 

• On balancing sccurtty and liberty: *Whal we're trymg to do here is what free people and this free people have done since the inception 
of the republic, which is to balance two things, both of which are virtues' our secunly end oia pnvecy There are no permanent answers to 
that Ws debata them continuouely based on the totaMy of orcumstanees in which we find ourselves The potot I make to our countrymen 
This le not a struggle between the forces of kght and the forces of darkness This is a good peopla. iryaig to find tht right balanoe * 

• On why tha presidential campaign of Jab Bush, whom ha had andorsed, struggled: 'Becauee a significant podwn of the American 
electorate in both parties are right now more interested si what I woukj cal a primal scream Wb're actually getting a very robust primal 
acream out of a candidate in each party right now . I understand the primal scream People are frustrated But you cent govern with a 
primal scream * 

Read or Share this story, http /Aisat ly/ITyiqT) 


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Science and Technology 

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DHS S&T Awards $2.2 Million to Malibu, California Company 
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S Program* 




A protester holds up an IPhone that reads, ’No Entry* outside of the the Apple store on 5th 
Avenue on Feb. 23, 2016, in New York City. I Getty 

Federal judge: Apple doesn't have to unlock iPhone in N.Y. case 

The ruling is likely to bolster Apple's resistance. 

By JOSH GERSTEIN 1 02/29/16 05:55 PM EST 

A federal magistrate in Brooklyn. New York, has denied the government’s application 
to force Apple to help law enforcement gain access to an iPhone belonging to a man 
who pled guilty in a meth conspiracy. 

The ruling is likely to bolster Apple's resistance in California to a separate FBI 
request that the company help investigators circumvent security features on an 
iPhone used by one of the terrorists in the San Bernardino shootings. 


In the New York case, U.S. Magistrate Judge James Orenstein rejected federal 
prosecutors' claim that a 1789 law authorizes the government to obtain a court order 
seeking to bypass a passcode-lock on an Apple phone. 

"Nothing in the government's arguments suggests any principled limit on how far a 
court may go in requiring a person or company to violate the most deeply-rooted 
values to provide assistance to the government the court deems necessary," Orenstein 

Apple originally cooperated with prosecutors in the Brooklyn case, but reversed 
course after Orenstein asked the company's lawyers to weigh in with a formal legal 


Mr. ISSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Am I recognized? 

Mr. Goodlatte. The gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Justice Scalia said, it’s best — said best what I’m going to quote 
almost 30 years ago in Arizona v. Hicks in which he said, “There 
is nothing new in the realization that the Constitution sometimes 
insulates the criminality of a few in order to protect the privacy of 
all of us.” 

I think that stands as a viewpoint that I have to balance when 
asking you questions. As I understand the case, and there’s a lot 
of very brilliant lawyers and experienced people that know about 
All Writs Act, but what I understand is that you, in the case of 
Apple in California, are demanding, through a court order, that 
Apple invent something, fair to say, that they have to create some- 

And if that’s true, then my first question to you is the FBI is the 
premier law enforcement organization with laboratories that are 
second to none in the world. Are you testifying today that you and/ 
or contractors that you employ could not achieve this without de- 
manding an unwilling partner do it? 

Mr. CoMEY. Correct. 

Mr. IssA. And you do so because you have researched this exten- 

Mr. COMEY. Yes. We’ve worked very, very hard on this. We’re 
never going to give up, but we’ve worked 

Mr. IssA. Did you receive the source code from Apple? Did you 
demand the source code? 

Mr. CoMEY. Did we ask Apple for their source code? I don’t — not 
that I’m aware of. 

Mr. IssA. Okay. So you couldn’t actually hand a software person 
the source code and say, can you modify this to do what we want, 
if you didn’t have the source code. So who did you go to, if you can 
tell us, that you consider an expert on writing source code changes 
that you want Apple to do for you? You want them to invent it, but 
who did you go to? 

Mr. COMEY. I’m not sure I’m following the question. 

Mr. IsSA. Well, you know. I’m going to assume that the burden 
of Apple is X, but before you get to the burden of Apple doing some- 
thing it doesn’t want to do, because it’s not in its economic best in- 
terests, and they’ve said that they have real ethical beliefs that 
you’re asking them to do something wrong, sort of their moral 
fiber, but you are asking them to do something, and there’s a bur- 
den, no question at all, there’s a burden, they have to invent it. 
And I’m asking you, have you fully viewed the burden to the gov- 
ernment? We have — we spend $4.2 trillion every year. You have a 
multi-billion dollar budget. Is the burden so high on you that you 
could not defeat this product, either through getting the source 
code and changing it or some other means? Are you testifying to 

Mr. CoMEY. I see. We wouldn’t be litigating if we could. We have 
engaged all parts of the U.S. Government to see does anybody that 
has a way, short of asking Apple to do it, with a 5C running lOS 
9 to do this, and we do not. 


Mr. ISSA. Okay. Well, let’s go through the 5C running lOS 9. 
Does the 5C have a nonvolatile memory in which all of the 
encrypted data and the selection switches for the phone settings 
are all located in that encrypted data? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know. 

Mr. IssA. Well, it does. 

Mr. CoMEY. Okay. 

Mr. IsSA. And take my word for it for now. So that means that 
you can, in fact, remove from the phone all of its memory, all of 
its nonvolatile memory, its disk drive, if you will, and set it over 
here and have a true copy of it that you could conduct infinite 
number of attacks on. Let’s assume that you can make an infinite 
number of copies once you make one copy, right? 

Mr. CoMEY. I have no idea. 

Mr. IssA. Well, let’s go through what you asked. And I’m doing 
this, because I came out of the security business, and this befud- 
dles me that you haven’t looked at the source code, and you don’t 
really understand the disk drive, at least to answer my rather, you 
know, dumb questions, if you will. 

If there’s only a memory, and that memory, that nonvolatile 
memory sits here and there’s a chip, and the chip does have an 
encryption code that was burned into it, and you can make 10,000 
copies of this chip, this nonvolatile memory hard drive, then you 
can perform as many attacks as you want on it. 

Now, you’ve asked specifically Apple to defeat the finger code so 
you can attack it automatically, so you don’t have to punch in 
codes. You’ve asked them to eliminate the ten and destroy, but you 
haven’t, as far as I know, asked them, okay, if we make 1,000 cop- 
ies, or 2,000 copies of this, and we put it with the chip, and we run 
five tries, 00 through 04, and then throw that image away and put 
another one in and do that 2,000 times, won’t we have tried, with 
a nonchanging chip and an encryption code that is duplicated 2,000 
times, won’t we have tried all 10,000 possible combinations in a 
matter of hours? 

If you haven’t asked that question, the question is, how can you 
come before this Committee and before a Federal judge, and de- 
mand that somebody else invent something, if you can’t answer the 
questions that your people have tried this? 

Mr. CoMEY. First thing. I’m the Director of the FBI. If I could 
answer that question, there would be something dysfunctional in 
my leadership. 

Mr. IsSA. No. I only asked if your people had done these things. 
I didn’t ask you if that would work. I don’t know if that work. I 
asked you, who did you go to, did you get the source code? Have 
you asked these questions, because you’re expecting somebody to 
obey an order to do something they don’t want to do, and you 
haven’t even figured out whether you could do it yourself. You just 
told us, well, we can’t do it, but you didn’t ask for the source code, 
and you didn’t ask the questions I asked here today, and I’m just 
a — I’m just a guy that 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired, and the 
Director is permitted to answer the question. 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


Mr. COMEY. I did not ask the questions you’re asking me here 
today, and I’m not sure I fully even understand the questions. I 
have reasonable confidence, in fact, I have high confidence that all 
elements of the U.S. Government have focused on this problem and 
have had great conversations with Apple. Apple has never sug- 
gested to us that there’s another way to do it other than what 
they’ve been asked to do in the All Writs Act. It could be when the 
Apple representative testifies, you’ll ask him and we’ll have some 
great breakthrough, but I don’t think so. But I’m totally open to 
suggestions. Lots of people have emailed ideas. I’ve heard about 
mirroring, and maybe this is what you’re talking about. We haven’t 
figured it out, but I’m hoping my folks are watching this, and if 
you’ve said something that makes good sense to them, we’ll jump 
on it and we’ll let you know. 

Mr. ISSA. Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from 
California, Ms. Lofgren, for 5 minutes. 

Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you. Direc- 
tor Comey, for your service to our country and your efforts to keep 
us safe. It is appreciated by every member of this Committee. And 
along with your entire agency, we do value your service and appre- 
ciate it. 

I remember in law school the phrase “bad cases make bad law.” 
I’m sure we all heard that, and I think this might be a prime ex- 
ample of that rule. We can’t think of anything worse than what 
happened in San Bernardino, two terrorists murdering innocent 
people. It’s outrageous. It sickens us, and it sickens the country. 
But the question really has to be, what is the rule of law here? 
Where are we going with this? 

And as I was hearing your opening statement talking about a 
world where everything is private, it may be that the alternative 
is a world where nothing is private, because once you have holes 
in encryption, the rule is, it’s not a question of if, but when those 
holes will be exploited and everything that you thought was pro- 
tected will be revealed. 

Now, the United States law often tends to set international 
norms, especially when it comes to technology policy. And, in fact, 
China removed provisions that required backdoors in its 
counterterrorism law passed in December because of the strong 
international norm against creating cyber weaknesses, but last 
night, I heard a report that the ambassadors from America, the 
United States, Canada, Germany, and Japan, sent a joint letter to 
China, because they’re now thinking about putting a hole in 
encryption in their new policy. 

Did you think about the implication for foreign policy, what 
China might do, when you filed the motion in San Bernardino, or 
was that not part of the equation? 

Mr. Comey. Yeah. I don’t think — I don’t remember thinking 
about it in the context of this particular investigation, but I think 
about it a whole lot broadly, which is one of the things that makes 
it so hard. There are undoubtedly international implications, actu- 
ally, I think less to the device encryption question and more to the 
data in motion question, but, yeah, I have no doubt that there’s 
international implications. I don’t have good visibility into what the 


Chinese require from people who sell devices in their country. I 
know it’s an important topic. 

Ms. Lofgren. Before I forget, Mr. Chairman, I’d like to ask 
unanimous consent to put in the record an op-ed that was printed 
in The Los Angeles Times today authored by myself and my col- 
league, Mr. Issa, on this subject. 

Mr. Goodlatte. How could anyone object to that being a part of 
the record? 

[The information referred to follows:] 


3^1/2016 Gov«rnm«ni backdoor' accasa lo a iPbonc wetid undo years of prograsa menhna sacunty • LA Timas 

Opinion / Op-Ed 

Op-Ed Government 'backdoor' access to a 
single iPhone would undo years of progress in 
online security 

People rally in front of an Apple Store in San Francisco on Feb. 23 to show their support for the company in its legal battle with 
the FBI. (John G. Mabanglo / EPA) 

ByZoe Lofgrcn and Darrell Issa 

MARCH 1, 2016. 5 00 AM 

W hile the media has reported on nearly every minutia of the ongoing litigation between 
Apple and the FBI, we seem to have lost sight of the bigger picture. 

This is not just about gov’emment investigators gaining access to the iPhone 5C used by 
^’ed Rizwan Farook, one of the attackers who killed 14 people in San Bernardino late last >'ear. 

It’s not just about one technology company's right to conduct business as it sees fit, or cN'en the rights of 
all technology companies. 

It’s about Americans’ broader rights to privacy. 

http/Avww taUmea com.‘opnorvtop«d/la-oe-lofgrerviftsa'(b-appe.bMi(dMr>20l6030l.atery html 



Gov«rnm«ni backdoor' accasa lo a iPhona wotid urd» yaara of prograaa inortma aacunty • LA Timaa 


The FBI says its wants a backdoor for just one 
phone, but it's clearly trying to set a 

Allowing the government “backdoor” access to just this one phone would undo years of technological 
advances in online security. 

The Department of Justice is reportedly seeking court orders to make Apple unlock and extract data 
from as many as 12 other phones around the country, which sources familiar with the cases say weren't 
even used in acts of terrorism. Manhattan Dist. Atty. Cyrus Vance Jr. says he has as many as 175 iPhones 
that he would “absolutely” try to force Apple to break into if the government wins its San Bernardino 
case. Ihe Los Angeles Times also reports that the Los Angeles Police and Sheriff s departments alone 
have hundreds of phones th^'d like opened too. 

The FBI says its wants a backdoor for just one phone, but it’s clearly trying to set a precedent. Both the 
FBI and the DOJ want law enforcement agents to have the legal authorit>' and the technical capability to 
access any phone they suspect to contain information of value. 

Moreover, although the focus for the moment is on smartphones, the government’s desire for backdoor 
technolog>’ could easily extend to every product that connects to the Internet and ev'ery computerized 
^tem, including the systems that protect our money, cars, identities, televisions and, increasingly, the 
systems that run our thermostats, refrigerators and even our lightbulbs. 

The proper place for this argument is not a courtroom in California, but in Congress where there can be 
public debate and full consideration. Indeed, the issue of mandating technological backdoors for 
government investigators is already a topic of vigorous discussion among the people's elected 
representatives in Washington. The emerging consensus is that a backdoor intended for use by law 
enforcement will inevitably, eventually be exploited by criminals. Creating this Milnerabilit>' w'ould thus 
endanger Americans, giving not only government agents but also hackers access to our most intimate 
and carefully guarded personal information. 

Instead of weakening privacy protections, lawmakers should support legislation — like that which 
passed the House with overwhelming support on three separate occasions — prohibiting government- 
mandated backdoors that intentionally undermine and undercut the development and deployment of 
strong data security technologies. 

http/Awvw taUmea com-iop n«rvto^«dla-ofr-lofgrerv.itaa'lb -apple* backdoor -20l6Cl30l*sieryhtml 


3'1/2016 Gov«rnm«ni backdoor' accasa lo a iPbona wetid undo yaara of prograaa mortma aacunty • LA Timaa 

Zoe Lofgren is the senior Democrat on the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration and Border 
Security. Darrell Issa is the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts, 
Intellectual Property, and the Internet. 

Follow the Opinion section on Twitter @latimesopinion and Facebook 
Copyright 0 2016, Los Angeles Times 

This article is related to: Opinion. Commentary, FBI, Zoe Lofgren. Apple iPhone, Oarrell E Issa. Personal 
Data Collection 

Ntp/Mnvw taUmes ooni.‘epnort^o^eiMa>oa>lofgrarviaaa«to*apf)la>baci(door>20l6Cl30l*alery html 



Ms. Lofgren. I just note that in terms of the — you mentioned 
that the code at Apple, that they’ve done a pretty good joh of pro- 
tecting their code and you didn’t remember anything getting out 
loose, hut I do think, you know, if you take a look, for example, at 
the situation with Juniper Networks, where they had — their job is 
cybersecurity, really, and they felt that they had strong encryption, 
and yet, there was a vulnerability, and they were hacked and it put 
everybody’s data, including the data of the U.S., I mean, of the FBI 
and the State Department and the Department of Justice at risk, 
and we still don’t know what was taken by our enemies. 

Did you think about the Juniper Networks issue when you filed 
the All Writs Act report, you know, remedy in San Bernardino? 

Mr. COMEY. No. But I think about that and a lot of similar intru- 
sions and hacks all day long, because it’s the FBI’s job to inves- 
tigate those and stop those. 

Ms. Lofgren. I was struck by your comment that Apple hadn’t 
been hacked, but, in fact, iCloud accounts have been hacked in the 
past. I think we all remember in 2014, the female celebrity ac- 
counts that were hacked from the cloud, from iCloud, and CNBC 
had a report that China likely attacked iCloud accounts. And then 
in 2015, last year, Apple had to release a patch in response to con- 
cerns that there had been brute force attacks at iCloud accounts. 

So I am anticipating, we’ll see, that Apple will take further steps 
to encrypt and protect not only its operating system that it has 
today, but also the protection as well as the iCloud accounts. 

And I’ll just close with this. I have on my iPhone all kinds of 
messaging apps that are fully encrypted, some better than others. 
Some were designed in the United States, a bunch of them were 
designed in other countries. And I’m not — I wouldn’t do anything 
wrong on my iPhone, but if I were a terrorist, I could use any one 
of those apps and communicate securely, and there wouldn’t be 
anything that the U.S. Government, not the FBI, not the Congress, 
or the President could do to prevent that from occurring. So I see 
this as, you know, the question of whether my security is going to 
be protected, but the terrorists’ will continue abate. 

And I thank you, Mr. Comey, for being here. I yield back, Mr. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentlewoman. 

And the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Poe, for 
5 minutes. 

Mr. Poe. Thank you. Director. I appreciate you being here. 

Start with a little — some basics. The Fourth Amendment protects 
citizens from government. Citizens have rights; government has 
power. There is nowhere I see in the Fourth Amendment that there 
is an except-for-terrorists-cases exception or fear cases, that the 
Fourth Amendment should be waived. I signed lots of warrants in 
22 years from everybody, including the FBI. Four corners of the 
warrant, what is to be searched, and law enforcement typically 
would fulfill the duty or ability in that warrant as far as they 
could, which is a good thing, and return the warrant. 

Now we have a situation where the issue is not lawful posses- 
sion. FBI is in lawful possession of the San Bernardino phone; law- 
ful possession of the phone in New York. Do you agree with me on 


Mr. COMEY. Yes. 

Mr. Poe. So we’re not talking about whether the phones are in 
lawful possession. The issue is whether — the specific issue is 
whether government can force Apple, in this case, to give them the 
golden key to unlock the safe because they can’t develop the key. 
I know that’s kind of simplistic, but is that a fair statement or not? 

Mr. CoMEY. No. 

Mr. Poe. Not? Let me ask you this — okay, you say it is not. 
Apple develops the software and gives it to — and unlocks the 
phone, but this is not the only phone in question. Is that correct? 
There are other phones that FBI has in lawful possession that you 
can’t get into. 

Mr. COMEY. Sure. Law enforcement increasingly encounters 
phones, investigations all over the place that can’t be unlocked. I 
would mention the Baton Rouge case too. 

Mr. Poe. All right. There’s several. How many cases do you have 
in lawful possession that you want to get into the phone but you 
can’t get into it because you don’t have the software to break into 
it or to get into it? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know the number. A lot. 

Mr. Poe. A lot. 

Mr. CoMEY. And they are all different, which is what makes it 
hard to talk about any one case without being specific about what 
kind of phone it is. 

Mr. Poe. But you are in lawful possession of all these phones. 
This is not the issue of whether FBI lawfully possesses them. You 
have these phones. You can’t get into them. Here is a specific 
phone. You want iPhone — Apple to develop software to get into this 

My question is, what would prevent the FBI from then taking 
that software and going into all those other phones you have and 
future phones you seize? 

Mr. CoMEY. I see. This seems like a small difference, but I think 
it’s actually kind of a big difference. The ask, the direction from the 
judge is not to have Apple get us into the phones; it’s to have Apple 
turn off by developing software that will tell the phone to turn off 
the auto erase and the delay features so that we can try and guess 
the password. 

And so, in theory, if you had another 5C running iOS 9, which 
is what makes this relief possible — I mean it when I say it’s obso- 
lete, because I understand the 6s — there is no door for us to even 
try and pick the lock on, so it wouldn’t work. But if there were 
phones in the same circumstances, sure, you could ask for the same 
relief from a court to try and make effective the search warrant. 

Mr. Poe. So, rather than giving you the key, it’s really you want 
Apple to turn the security system off so they can get into the phone 
or you can get into the phone? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah. My homely metaphor was: take away the 
drooling watchdog that is going to attack us if we try and open it. 
Give us time to pick the lock. 

Mr. Poe. Or like the Viper system that Mr. Issa developed. Turn 
off the Viper system so you can get into the phone. 

And it boils down to the fact of whether or not government has 
the ability to demand that occur. We have two court rulings. They 


are different. I have read the opinions. They are different, a little 
different cases. Would you agree or not, Congress has to resolve 
this problem? We shouldn’t leave it up to the judiciary to make this 
decision. Congress should resolve the problem and determine ex- 
actly what the expectation of privacy is in these particular situa- 
tions of encryption or no encryption; key, no key? Do you agree or 

Mr. COMEY. I think that the courts are competent — and this is 
what we’ve done for 230 years — to resolve the narrow question 
about the scope of the All Writs Act. But the broader question 
we’re talking about here goes far beyond phones or far beyond any 
case. This collision between public safety and privacy, the courts 
cannot resolve that. 

Mr. Poe. And only — the Congress should then resolve, what is 
the expectation of privacy in this high-tech atmosphere of all this 
information stored in many different places on the cloud, on the 
phone, wherever it’s stored, and — would you agree or not? I am just 
asking, should Congress resolve this issue of expectation of privacy 
of the American citizens? 

Mr. COMEY. I think Congress certainly has a critical role to play. 
Like I said, since the founding of this country, the courts have in- 
terpreted the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment, so 
they are competent. That’s an independent branch of government. 
But I think it is a huge role for Congress to play, and we’re playing 
it today, I hope. 

Mr. Poe. I agree with you. I think it’s Congress’ responsibility to 
determine the expectation of privacy in this high-tech world. 

And I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

The gentleman from Tennessee is recognized for 5 minutes. 
There’s 9 minutes and 45 seconds remaining in this vote. I will 
take a chance if the gentleman from Tennessee will. 

Mr. Cohen. If you want to go, I will go, or I will come back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. I am trying to move it along and not keep the 
Director any longer than we have to, so go ahead. 

Mr. Cohen. Thank you. 

Director Comey, are there limitations that you could see in per- 
mitting the FBI or government in a court to look into certain 
records, certain type of cases, certain type of circumstances that 
you could foresee, or do you want it open for any case where there 
could be evidentiary value? 

Mr. Comey. I am not sure I am following you. I like the way we 
have to do our work, which is go to a judge in each specific case 
and show lawful authority and a factual basis for access to any- 
body’s stuff. 

Mr. Cohen. But if we decided to pass a statute and we thought 
it should be limited in some way, maybe to terrorism or maybe to 
something where it’s a reasonable expectation that a person’s life 
is in jeopardy or that you could apprehend somebody who has 
taken somebody’s life, have you thought about any limits? 

Because, you know, under what you are saying, you go to a court, 
I mean, you could go to a court for cases that are not capital cases, 
and that’s — I don’t think anybody here — what the public is fas- 
cinated or riveted on is the fact that what happened in San 


Bernardino was so awful, and if we can find some communication 
or some list that was in the cloud that these people contacted, you 
know, Osama bin Laden’s cousin and that they get — and find out 
that he has something to do with it, then that’s important. But if 
you are talking about getting into somebody’s information to find 
out who they sold, you know, 2 kilos or two bags or whatever is 
a whole different issue. 

Where would you limit it if you were coming up with a statute 
that could satisfy both your interest in the most extreme, impor- 
tant cases and yet satisfy privacy concerns? 

Mr. COMEY. Yeah, I see. I am sorry. I misunderstood the ques- 

I don’t know and haven’t thought about it well enough. And, 
frankly, I don’t think that ought to be the FBI making that — offer- 
ing those parameters to you. There is precedent for that kind of 
thing. We can only seek wire taps, for example, on certain enumer- 
ated offenses in the United States, so it has to be really serious 
stuff before a judge can even be asked to allow us to listen to some- 
one’s communications in the United States. It can’t just be any of- 
fense. So there’s precedent for that kind of thing, but I haven’t 
thought about it well enough. 

Mr. Cohen. Thank you. Because I am slow in getting up there 
to vote and the Republicans hit the — real quickly, I am going to 
yield back the balance of my time and start to walk fast. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman. 

The Committee will stand in recess. We have two votes on the 
floor, with 7 minutes remaining in the first vote. 

Mr. Director, we appreciate your appearance. We will come back 


Mr. Goodlatte. The Committee will reconvene and continue 
with questions for Director Comey. 

And the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Utah, Mr. 
Chaffetz, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And to the Director, thank you so much for being here. 

As I have mentioned before, my grandfather was a career FBI 
agent, so I have great affinity for the agency and what you do and 
how you do it. They almost always make us proud. 

But the big question for our country is, you know, how much pri- 
vacy are we going to give up in the name of security? And as you 
said, there is no easy answer to that. 

But when, historically, with all the resources and assets of the 
Federal Government, all the expertise, all the billions of dollars, 
when has it been the function of government to compel or force a 
private citizen or a company to act as an agent of the government 
to do what the government couldn’t do? 

Mr. Comey. That’s a legal question. In lots of different cir- 
cumstances, private entities have been compelled by court order to 
assist, again through the All Writs Act. New York Telephone is the 
Supreme Court case, the seminal case on the topic. 

Mr. Chaffetz. So let’s talk for a moment about what you can see 
and what you can do. With all due respect to the FBI, they did — 
they didn’t do what Apple had suggested they do in order to re- 


trieve the data, correct? I mean, when they went to change the 
password, that kind of screwed things up. Did it not? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah, I don’t know that that’s accurate actually. I 
wasn’t there. I don’t have complete visibility. But I agreed with the 
questioner earlier: there was an issue created by the effort by the 
county at the FBI’s request to try and reset it to get into it quickly. 

Mr. Chaffetz. And if they didn’t reset it, then they could have 
gone to a WiFi, local WiFi, a known WiFi access, and performed 
that backup so they could go to the cloud and look at that data, 

Mr. COMEY. Right. You could get in the cloud through that mech- 
anism anything that was backup-able — to make up a word — to the 
cloud, but that does not solve your full problem. I think I would 
still be sitting here talking about it otherwise. 

Mr. Chaffetz. But let’s talk about what the government can see 
on using a phone, and it’s not just an iPhone. But you can look at 
metadata, correct? 

Mr. Comfy. Yes. 

Mr. Chaffetz. The metadata is not encrypted, correct? If I called 
someone else or that phone had called other people, all of that in- 
formation is available to the FBI, correct? 

Mr. Comfy. In most circumstances, right. Metadata 

Mr. Chaffetz. In this case — let’s talk about this case. You want 
to talk about this case. You can see the metadata, correct? 

Mr. Comfy. My understanding is we can see most of the 

Mr. Chaffetz. How would you define metadata? 

Mr. Comfy. I was just going to say that. Metadata, as I under- 
stand it, is records of time of contact, numbers assigned to the par- 
ticular caller or texter. It’s everything except content. You can’t see 
what somebody said, but you can see that I texted to you in theory. 

My understanding is with text in particular, that’s tricky. Par- 
ticularly texting using iMessage, there’s limitations on our ability 
to see the metadata around that. Again, I am not an expert, but 
that’s my understanding. 

Mr. Chaffetz. And do you believe that geolocation, if you are 
tracking somebody’s actual — where they are, is that content or is 
that metadata? 

Mr. Comfy. My understanding is it depends upon whether you 
are talking historical or real time when it comes to geolocation 
data, but it can very much implicate the warrant requirement and 
does in the FBI’s work a lot. 

Mr. Chaffetz. So that’s what we’re trying to — what’s frustrating 
to me, being on Judiciary, being the Chairman of the Oversight 
Committee, there is nobody on the this panel as in a republic and 
representative of the people that have been able to see what the 
guidance is post-Jones in understanding how you interpret and 
what you are actually doing or not doing with somebody’s 

Mr. Comfy. You have asked that of the FBI and not been able 
to get it? 

Mr. Chaffetz. Department of Justice, they have been asking for 
this for years. What’s frustrating is the Department of Justice is 
asking for more tools, more compulsion, and we can’t even see what 


you are already doing. We can’t even see to the degree you are 
using stingrays and how they work. I mean, I think I understand 
how they work, but what sort of requirements are there? Is it 
articulable suspicion? Is there a probable cause warrant that’s 
being used or needed? 

And it’s not just the FBI. I mean, you have got the IRS and So- 
cial Security and others using stingrays, again, other tools that I 
would argue are actually content into somebody’s life and not just 
the metadata that you are able to see. 

So how do we get exposure? How do we help you if we can’t — 
if you routinely refuse — and I say “you,” meaning the Department 
of Justice — access in explaining to us what tools you already do 
have and what you can access? How do we solve that? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah, I don’t have a great answer sitting here. I will 
find out what’s been asked for and what’s been given. I like the 
idea of giving as much transparency as possible. I think people find 
it reassuring, at least with respect to the FBI. To take cell phone 
tower simulators, we always use search warrants. And so that 
shouldn’t be that hard to get you that information. 

Mr. Chaffetz. What I worry about, you may be responsible, but 
I don’t know what the IRS is doing with them, and I have a hard 
time figuring out when that is responsible. 

Last comment, Mr. Chairman. To what degree are you able to ac- 
cess and get into, either in this case or broadly, are you able to 
search social media in general, and are you using that as an effec- 
tive tool to investigate and combat what you need to do? 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired. The wit- 
ness can answer the question. 

Mr. CoMEY. Social media is a feature of all of our lives, and so 
it’s a feature of a lot of our investigations. Sometimes it gives us 
useful information; sometimes not. It’s hard to answer in the ab- 
stract, but it’s a big part of our work. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Johnson. Thank you. Director Comey. 

The Framers of our Constitution recognized a right to privacy 
that Americans would enjoy. The Fourth Amendment pretty much 
implies that right to privacy. Does it not? 

Mr. Comey. I am not a constitutional scholar. I think a scholar, 
if he were sitting here, might say it’s not the Fourth Amendment 
that’s the source of the right to privacy; it’s other amendments of 
the Constitution. But that’s a technical answer. The Fourth 
Amendment is critically important because it’s a restriction on gov- 
ernment power. You may not look at the people’s stuff, their 
houses, their effects without a warrant and without an independent 

Mr. Johnson. But it also grants impliedly to the government, the 
Fourth Amendment, the authority to search and seize when the 
search or seizure is reasonable. Is that correct? 

Mr. Comey. Again, to be technical, I think the answer is Con- 
gress has given the government that authority through statute. 
The Fourth Amendment is a restriction on that authority. 

Mr. Johnson. The Fourth Amendment says that the right of the 
people to be secure in their place, in their persons, housings, pa- 


pers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall 
not be violated and no warrant shall issue but upon probable 
cause, supported by oath or affirmation. 

And what I am reading into the Fourth Amendment is that the 
people do have a right to privacy, have a right to be secure in their 
persons, housings, papers, and effects, but I am also reading into 
it an implied responsibility of the government to, on occasion, 
search and seize. Would that be your reading of it also? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. 

Mr. Johnson. And, of course, upon probable cause. But there are 
some circumstances where, in a hot pursuit or at the time of an 
arrest, there’s some exceptions that have been carved out to where 
a warrant is not always required to search and seize. Is that cor- 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. You mentioned one, the so-called exigent cir- 
cumstances doctrine, where if you are in the middle of an emer- 
gency and you are looking for a gun that a bad guy might have hid, 
you know, in a car or something, you don’t necessarily have to go 
get the warrant. If you have the factual basis, you can do the 
search and then have the judge look at it and validate it. 

Mr. Johnson. Now, even in a situation where exigent cir- 
cumstances exist, technology has now brought us to the point 
where law enforcement or the government is preempted from being 
able to search and seize. Is that correct? Technology has produced 
this result. 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah, I think technology has allowed us to create 
zones of complete privacy, which sounds like an awesome thing 
until you really think about it. But those zones prohibit any gov- 
ernment action under the Fourth Amendment or under our search 

Mr. Johnson. Well, it’s actually a zone of impunity, would it not 
be, a zone where bad things can happen and the security of Ameri- 
cans can be placed at risk? 

Mr. COMEY. Potentially, yes, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. And that is the situation that we have with end- 
to-end encryption. Is that not correct? 

Mr. COMEY. I think that’s a fair description, where we have com- 
munications where, even with the judge’s order, can’t be inter- 

Mr. Johnson. Now, you said that you were not a constitutional 
scholar, and neither am I, but does it seem reasonable that the 
Framers of the Constitution meant to exempt any domain from its 
authority to be able to search and seize if it’s based on probable 
cause or some exigent circumstance allows for a search and seizure 
with less than a warrant and a showing of probable cause? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah, I doubt that they — obviously, I doubt that they 
imagined the devices we have today and the ways of commu- 
nicating. But I also doubt that they imagined there would be any 
place in American life where law enforcement with lawful authority 
could not go. And the reason I say that is, the First Amendment 
talks about the people’s homes. Is there a more important place to 
any of us than our homes? 

So from the founding of this country, it was contemplated that 
law enforcement could go into your house with appropriate predi- 


cation and oversight. So, to me, the logic of that tells me they 
wouldn’t have imagined any hox or storage area or device that 
could never be entered. 

Mr. Johnson. So, from that standpoint, to be a strict construc- 
tionist about the Constitution and the Fourth Amendment, it’s ri- 
diculous that anyone would think that we would not be able to take 
our present circumstances and shape current law to appreciate the 
niceties of today’s practical realities. I know I am rambling a little 
bit. But did you understand what I just said? 

Mr. COMEY. I understand what you said, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. Would you agree or disagree with me? 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired. The Di- 
rector may answer the question. 

Mr. COMEY. I think it’s the kind of question that democracies 
were built to wrestle with and that the Congress of the United 
States is fully capable of wrestling with in a good way. 

Mr. Johnson. Well, in prior times, we have been. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired. 

Mr. Johnson. Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Penn- 
sylvania, Mr. Marino, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Marino. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Director, it’s always a pleasure. 

Mr. CoMEY. Same, sir. 

Mr. Marino. I am going to expand a little bit on one of Judge 
Poe’s questions. Is the Bureau asking Apple to simply turn over the 
penetration code for the Bureau to get into or that you want the 
penetration code at your disposal? Do you understand what I am 

Mr. CoMEY. As I understand the judge’s order, the way it could 
work out here is that the maker of the phone would write the code, 
keep the phone and the code entirely in their office space, and the 
FBI would send the guesses electronically. So we wouldn’t have the 
phone. We wouldn’t have the code. That’s my understanding of it. 

Mr. Marino. That’s good point to clarify, because there’s some — 
there’s a lot of rumors out there. 

I am going to switch to the courts a little bit here. Do you see 
the Federal court resolving the warrant issue that the Bureau is 
presently faced with, whatever way that decision eventually comes 
down, or should Congress legislate the issue now, if at all? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t — I appreciate the question. I don’t think 
that’s for me to say. I do think the courts — because some people 
have said so in the middle of this terrorism investigation, why 
didn’t you come to Congress? Well, because we’re in the middle of 
a terrorism investigation. And so I think the courts will sort that 
out faster than any legislative body could, but only that particular 

The broader question, as I said earlier, I don’t see how the courts 
can resolve this tension between privacy and public safety that 
we’re all feeling. 

Mr. Marino. Another good point. 

Given that most of our social, professional, and very personal in- 
formation is on our desktop computers, on our laptops, on our pads, 
and now more than ever on these things, what is your position on 


notching up the level at which members of the Federal judiciary 
can approve a warrant to access critically valuable evidence to 
solve a horrific felony, particularly when fighting terrorism? 

Mr. COMEY. Do you mean making the threshold something above 
probable cause? 

Mr. Marino. No, no, not the threshold, the Federal judicial indi- 
viduals making this decision. Right now, I understand it’s a mag- 
istrate. When I was at the State level, we could do some things at 
sort of the magistrate level or the district court, but then we had 
to go to the superior court, and working in the Federal system with 
you, we had to go to one or two different levels. What’s your posi- 
tion on that? 

Mr. CoMEY. I see what you are saying. So, instead of having 
magistrate judges decide these questions, the district court might? 

Mr. Marino. Yeah. And no disrespect to magistrate courts. I am 
very good friends with a lot of those brilliant people who will even- 
tually, I know, go to the bench. But from a perspective of the public 
that a more narrowly defined, limited number of people making 
that decision concerning the electronics that we have. 

Mr. CoMEY. Honestly, Congressman, I haven’t thought about 
that. I agree with you. I have a number of friends who are mag- 
istrate judges, and they are awesome. And they think well, and 
they rule well. I think they are fully capable of handling these 
issues, but I haven’t thought about it well enough to react, other 
than that. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. And just for the record, I have managed a 
couple of prosecution offices, and I have never gone to the experts, 
whether it’s in DNA or whether it’s in these electronics, and ask 
them, did you complete everything that you should have com- 

Mr. COMEY. Thank you, Mr. Marino. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from 
California, Ms. Chu, for 5 minutes. 

Ms. Chu. Director Comey, my district is next to San Bernardino. 
After the terror attack, we mourned the loss of 14 lives and 
empathized with the 22 wounded, and there is indeed fear and anx- 
iety amongst my constituents. So our discussion here today is par- 
ticularly important to the people back home. There are many in our 
area that want answers, but there are also many that feel con- 
flicted about putting their own privacy at risk. 

So my first question to you is: Under Federal law, we do not re- 
quire technology companies to maintain a key to unlock encrypted 
information in the devices they sell to customers. Some of the wit- 
nesses we will hear from today argue that if such a key or software 
was developed to help the FBI access the device used by Syed 
Farook, it would make the millions of other devices in use today 
vulnerable. How can we ensure that we’re not creating legal or 
technical backdoors to U.S. technology that will empower other for- 
eign governments in taking advantage of this loophole? 

Mr. Comey. It’s a great question. I think what you have to do 
is just talk to people on all sides of it who are true experts, which 
I am not, but I have also talked to a lot of experts. And I am an 
optimist. I actually don’t think we’ve given this the shot that it de- 


serves. I don’t think the most creative and innovative people in our 
country have had an incentive to try and solve this problem. 

But when I look at particular phones, in the fall of 2014, the 
makers of these phones could open them. And I don’t rememher 
people saying the world was ending at that point and that we’re 
all exposed. And so I do think judgments have heen made that are 
not irreversible. But I think the best way to get at it is talk to peo- 
ple about, so why do you make the phone this way, and what is 
the possibility? 

The world I imagine is a world where people comply with war- 
rants. How they do it is entirely up to them. Lots of phone makers 
and providers of email and text today provide secure services to 
their customers, and they comply with warrants. That’s just the 
way they have structured their business. And so it gives me a 
sense of optimism that this is not an impossible problem to solve. 
Really, really hard, and it will involve you all talking to the people 
who really know this work. 

Ms. Chu. Well, I would like to ask about law enforcement finding 
technical solutions. I understand that there may be other methods 
or solutions for law enforcement when it comes to recovering data 
on a smartphone. Professor Landau argues in her testimony later 
today that solutions to accessing the data already exist within the 
forensic analysis community, solutions which may include jail 
breaking the phone, amongst others. Or she says other entities 
within the Federal Government may have the expertise to crack 
the code. 

Has the FBI pursued those other methods or tried to get help 
from within the Federal Government, such as from agencies like 
the NSA? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes is the answer. We’ve talked to anybody who will 
talk with us about it, and I welcome additional suggestions. Again, 
you have to be very specific: 5C running iOS 9, what are the capa- 
bilities against that phone. There are versions of different phone 
manufacturers and combinations of model and operating system 
that it is possible to break a phone without having to ask the man- 
ufacturer to do it. We have not found a way to break the 5C run- 
ning iOS 9. 

And, as I said, in a way, this is kind of yesterday’s problem be- 
cause the 5C, although I am sure it’s a great phone, has been over- 
taken by the 6 and will be overtaken by others that are different 
in ways that make this relief yesterday. 

Ms. Chu. So let me ask you this: Like smart phones, safes can 
be another form of storage of personal information. Similarly to 
how technology companies are not required to maintain a key to 
unlock encryption, safe manufacturers are not required to maintain 
keys or combinations to locks. 

Given this, law enforcement has been able to find a way to get 
into safes under certain circumstances or obtain critical informa- 
tion through other avenues. So how does this differ from unlocking 
a smartphone? It’s clear that technology is outpacing law enforce- 
ment’s ability to get information from devices like the iPhone, even 
with a proper warrant, but isn’t it the FBI or the law enforcement 
agency who bears the responsibility to figure out the solution to 
unlock the code? 


Mr. CoMEY. I will take the last part first. Sure, if we can figure 
it out. The problem with the safe comparison is there’s no safe in 
the world that can’t be opened. And if our experts can’t crack it, 
we will blow it up. We will blow the door off. And so this is dif- 
ferent. The awesome, wonderful power of encryption changes that 
and makes that comparison, frankly, inept. 

And so, sure, where law enforcement can appropriately lawfully 
figure out how to do it, we will and should. But there will be occa- 
sions, and it’s going to sweep across — again with the updating of 
phones and the chan^ng of apps where we communicate end-to- 
end encrypted — it’s going to sweep across all of our work and out- 
strip our ability to do it on our own. 

Ms. Chu. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentlewoman. 

The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Gowdy, is recognized 
for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Gowdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Director, thank you for your service to the country. 

And I do appreciate your acknowledgment and that of my col- 
leagues of the difficulty in reconciling competing binary constitu- 
tional principles like public safety, national security, and privacy. 
And I confess upfront: my bias is toward public safety. 

Because of this loosely held conviction I have that the right to 
counsel, the right to free speech, the right to a jury trial just isn’t 
of much use if you are dead, so I reconcile those competing prin- 
ciples in favor of public safety. 

And my concern as I hear you testify is that I have colleagues 
and others who are advocating for these evidence-free zones. They 
are just going to be compartments of life where you are precluded 
from going to find evidence of anything. 

And I am trying to determine whether or not we as a society are 
going to accept that, that there are certain — no matter how compel- 
ling the government’s interest is in accessing that evidence, we are 
declaring right now this is an evidence-free zone; you can’t go here 
no matter whether it’s a terrorist plot — and I am not talking about 
the Feng case. That’s a drug case. The case the magistrate decided 
yesterday in New York is a drug case. Those are a dime a dozen. 

National security, there’s nothing that the government has a 
more compelling interest in than that, and we’re going to create 
evidence-free zones? Am I missing something? Is that how you see 
it? You just can’t go in these categories unless somebody consents? 

Mr. COMEY. That’s my worry, and why I think it’s so important 
we have this conversation. Because even I on the surface think it 
sounds great when people say: Hey, you buy this device; no one will 
ever be able to look at your stuff. But there are times when law 
enforcement saves our lives, rescues our children, and rescues our 
neighborhoods by going to a judge and getting permission by look- 
ing at our stuff. 

And so, again, I come to the case of a Baton Rouge 8-month preg- 
nant woman, shot when she opens her door. Her mom says she 
keeps a diary on her phone. We can’t look at the diary to figure 
out what might have been going on in her life. Who was she 
texting with? That’s a problem. I love privacy. But all of us also 
love public safety, and it’s so easy to talk about. Buy this amazing 


device; you will be private. But you have to take the time to think: 
Okay. There’s that, and what are the costs of that? And that’s 
where this collision is coming in. 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, I love privacy too, but I want my fellow citi- 
zens to understand that most of us also, in varying degrees, also 
love our bodies and the physical integrity of our body. But since 
Schmerber, the government has been able to access orders for ei- 
ther blood against the will of the defendant or, in some instances, 
surgical procedures against the will of the defendant. 

So when I hear my colleagues say, have you ever asked a non- 
government actor to participate in the securing of evidence, abso- 
lutely. That’s what the surgeon does. If you have a bullet from an 
officer who was shot in a defendant, you can go to a judge and ask 
the judge to force a nurse or surgeon to anesthetize and remove 
that bullet. So if you can penetrate the integrity of the human body 
in certain categories of cases, how in the hell you can’t access a 
phone, I just find baffling. 

But let me ask you this: If Apple were here — and they are going 
to be here — how would they tell you to do it? If there were a plot 
on an iPhone to commit an act of violence against, say, hypo- 
thetically, an Apple facility, and they expected you to prevent it, 
how would they tell you to access the material on this phone? 

Mr. COMEY. I think they would say what they have said, which 
I believe is in good faith, that we have designed this in response 
to what we believe to be the demands of our customers to be im- 
mune to any government warrant or our, the manufacturer’s, ef- 
forts to get into that phone. We think that’s what people want. 

And that may be so, except I would hope folks will look at this 
conversation and say, “Really, do I want that?” and take a step 
back and understand that this entire country of ours is based on 
a balance. It’s a hard one to strike, but it’s so seductive to talk 
about privacy as the ultimate value. In a society where we aspire 
to be safe and have our families safe and our children safe, that 
can’t be true. We have to find a way to accommodate both. 

Mr. Gowdy. So Apple, on the one hand, wants us to kind of 
weigh and balance privacy, except they have done it for us. They 
have said at least as it relates to this phone, we’ve already done 
that weighing and balancing, and there is no governmental interest 
compelling enough for us to allow you to try to guess the password 
of a dead person’s phone that is owned by a city government. 
There’s no balancing to be done. They have already done it for us. 

I would just — I will just tell you. Director, in conclusion: We ask 
the Bureau and others to do a lot of things, investigate crime after 
it’s taken place, anticipate crime, stop it before it happens. And all 
you are asking is to be able to guess the password and not have 
the phone self-destruct. And you can go into people’s bodies and re- 
move bullets, but you can’t go into a dead person’s iPhone and re- 
move data. I just find it baffling. 

But I am out of time. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Deutch, 
for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Deutch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


Director Comey, thank you for being here. Thank you for your 
service and that of the men and women who work for you. We’re 
all grateful for what they do. 

And I just wanted to take a moment before I ask you a couple 
questions here to let you know that Bob Levinson, who was an 
agent for over 20 years, 28 years, at the Justice Department, con- 
tinues to be missing. I want to thank you for what you have done. 
I want to thank you for the Facebook page in Farsi that you have 
put up. I would love a report on the effectiveness and what you 
have heard from that. 

And I want to, more than anything else, on behalf of Bob’s fam- 
ily, I want to thank you for never forgetting this former agent, and 
I am grateful for that. 

Mr. Comey. Thank you, sir. He’ll never be forgotten. 

Mr. Deutch. Now, I want to agree with Mr. Gowdy that if this 
were as easy as public safety or privacy, I think most of us, prob- 
ably all of us, if we had to make the choice, we’re going to opt for 
public safety for the very reason that Mr. Gowdy spoke of 

I have some questions. What I am confused about is this: The 
tool that you would need to take away the dogs, take away the vi- 
cious guard dogs, it’s a tool that would disable the auto-erase. 
There’s some confusion as to whether there’s an additional tool that 
you are seeking that would allow you to rapidly test possible 
passcodes. Is there a second tool as well? 

Mr. Comey. Yeah. I think there’s actually three elements to it. 
And I have spoken to experts. I hope I get this right. The first is 
what you said, which is to disable the self-destruct, auto-erase type 
feature. The second is to disable the feature that, between succes- 
sive guesses — as I understand iOS 9, it spreads out the time, so 
even if we got the ability to guess, it would take years and years 
to guess. So do away with that function. And the third thing, which 
is smaller, is set it up so that we can send you electronic guesses 
so we don’t have to have an FBI agent sit there and punch in 1- 
2-3-4, like that. 

Mr. Deutch. And once they created that, would you expect them, 
after this case, would you expect them to preserve that or destroy 

Mr. Comey. I don’t know. It would depend on what the judge’s 
order said. I think that’s for the judge to sort out. That’s my recol- 

Mr. Deutch. So here is the issue: I think that vicious guard dog 
that you want to take away so you can pick the lock is one thing. 
But in a world where we do — I mean, it’s true: there are awful peo- 
ple, terrorists, child predators, molesters who do everything on 
here. But so do so many of the rest of us, and we would like a pack 
of vicious guard dogs to protect our information to keep us safe, be- 
cause there’s a public safety part of that equation as well. 

And the example of surgical procedures, the reason that that I 
don’t think applies here is because, in that case, we know the only 
one doing the surgical procedure is the doctor operating on behalf 
of law enforcement. But when this tool is created, the fear, obvi- 
ously, is that it might be used by others, that there are many who 
will try to get their hands on it and will then put at risk our infor- 
mation on our devices. 


And how do you balance it? This is a really hard one for me. This 
isn’t an either/or. I don’t see it as a binary option. So how do you 
do that? 

Mr. COMEY. I think it’s a reasonable question. I also think it’s 
something the judge will sort out. Apple’s contention, which, again, 
I believe is made in good faith, is that there would be substantial 
risk around creating this software. On the government side, count 
us skeptical, although we could be wrong, because I think the gov- 
ernment’s argument is that’s your business to protect your soft- 
ware, your innovation. This would be usable in one phone. But, 
again, that’s something the judge is going to have to sort out. It’s 
not an easy question. 

Mr. Deutch. If it’s the case, though, that it’s usable in more 
than one phone and that it applies beyond there, then the public 
safety concerns that we may have, that a lot of us have about what 
would happen if the bad guys got access to our phones and our chil- 
dren’s phones, in that case, those are really valid. Aren’t they? 

Mr. CoMEY. Sure. The question that I think we’re going to have 
litigation about is how reasonable is that concern. And, you know, 
slippery-slope arguments are always attractive, but I mean, I sup- 
pose you could say, well, Apple’s engineers have this in their head. 
What if they are kidnapped and forced to write software? That’s 
why the judge has to sort this out between good lawyers on both 
sides making all reasonable arguments. 

Mr. Deutch. And, finally, Mr. Chairman, I just worry, when we 
talk about the precedential value, the discussion is taking place 
wholly within a domestic context. There are countries around the 
world where we know very well that the governments do their best 
to monitor what happens in their country and, through people’s cell 
phones, are able to squash dissent, are able to take action to throw 
people in jail and to torture people. 

And I think that precedential value is something else that we 
have to bear in mind as we engage in this really important and 
really difficult debate. 

And I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Florida, Mr. DeSantis for 5 minutes. 

Mr. DeSantis. Good afternoon. Director Comey. When you are 
looking at a case like the Apple case, and you want to be able to, 
as you said, remove the guard dogs and the FBI go in, are you con- 
cerned about preserving the evidentiary value that can then be 
used, or are you more interested in just getting the information for 
intel purposes so that you can use that for counterterrorism? 

Mr. Comey. Our hope is to do both, but if we have to choose, we 
want the information first, and then we would like it, obviously, to 
be in a form that could be used if there was a court proceeding 
against somebody someday. 

Mr. DeSantis. I guess, are there instances in which maybe a 
company would provide the data but would provide it to you in a 
way that you would not necessarily be able to authenticate that in 

Mr. Comey. Sure. That happens all the time. 

Mr. DeSantis. And that’s something that the FBI, if that’s what 
you get, then you are fine with that? 


Mr. CoMEY. Depends upon the case, but in general, that’s a tool 
that we use, private cooperation where we may not be able to use 
the information in court. 

Mr. DeSantis. And in terms of the guy in San Bernardino, it 
wasn’t even his phone, and then the owner of the phone has con- 
sented for the FBI to have the information. Is that correct? 

Mr. CoMEY. Right. We have a search warrant for the phone. The 
guy who was possessing it is obviously dead. And the owner of the 
phone has consented. 

Mr. DeSantis. What’s the best analogous case to what you are 
trying to do here? Because people will look at it and say: Well, you 
are basically commandeering a company to have to do these things. 
That’s typically not the way it works. So what would you say is — 
outside of the technology context, what would be an analogous 

Mr. CoMEY. Well, everyone in the United States, to some degree, 
has an obligation to cooperate with appropriate authority. The 
question that the court has to resolve under the All Writs Act is, 
what are the limits of that? Apple’s argument is that might be okay 
if it requires us to hand you something we’ve already made to open 
a phone, but if we’re going to make something new, that’s beyond 
the scope of the law. 

As you know, that’s something the courts do every day in the 
United States, trying to understand the law and interpret its scope 
based on a particular set of facts. So that’s what will be done in 
San Bernardino in a different context. It’s being done in Brooklyn, 
in the drug case in Brooklyn. I think it’s being done in different 
stages all over the country, because in investigation after investiga- 
tion, law enforcement is encountering these kinds of devices. 

Mr. DeSantis. In your cases, have you gotten an order under the 
All Writs Act to just have a defendant, if you have a search war- 
rant, produce the code? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know of a — I don’t know of a similar case. 

Mr. DeSantis. In terms of, I know some of the technology compa- 
nies are concerned about if they are creating ways to, I guess, pen- 
etrate their systems, that’s creating like a back door. And I guess 
my concern is terrorists, obviously, when operating in a variety of 
spheres, one of the ways that they get a lot of bang for their buck 
is cyber attacks. 

And so if companies were creating more access for law enforce- 
ment in some of these situations, would that create more vulner- 
ability for people and be more likely that they were subjected to a 
potential cyber attack? 

Mr. CoMEY. Potentially, sure. If there were access tools that got 
loose in the wild or that could be easily stolen or available to bad 
people, it’s a concern. As I said, a huge part of the Bureau’s work 
is protecting privacy by fighting against those cybercriminals. So 
it’s something we worry about every day. 

Mr. DeSantis. Well, how would you then provide a assurances, 
if you are requesting a company to work with you, that this doesn’t 
get out into the wild, so to speak? 

Mr. CoMEY. I think in the particular case, we have confidence — 
and I think it is justified — that Apple is highly professional at pro- 
tecting its own innovation, its own information. So the idea here 


is: You keep it. You figure out how to store it. You figure — you even 
take the phone and protect it. I think that’s something they do 
pretty well, hut, again, that is something the judge will sort out. 

Apple’s argument, I think, will he that’s not reasonable because 
there are risks around that. Even though we’re good at this, it 
could still get away from us. And the judge will have to figure that 
out, what’s reasonable in that circumstance. 

Mr. DeSantis. Thank you. 

I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Gutierrez. 

Mr. Gutierrez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you. Director Comey, for coming and being with us 
here this afternoon. I won’t take my 5 minutes, so I will make a 
couple of comments and beginning by saying that I hope that all 
of the Members of the Committee would take note that the Director 
is actually answering our questions, and that is obviously very re- 
freshing in that we get a lot of witnesses here. And if they bring 
them, we might not like them; if we bring them, they don’t seem 
to like them. And it’s good to get information without passing judg- 

And I think that’s what you have done very well here today. You 
are not passing judgment on Apple and their motivation. And I 
think in not questioning people’s motivation, it’s easier to get a so- 
lution, because once you do that, everybody kind of says: “Okay, 
let’s get all our defenses up.” And, really, what we need to be doing 
is defending the American people, not Apple or any company or the 
FBI for that matter, but defending the American people. So I want 
to thank you for that. 

And I just want to suggest that we continue these conversations. 
I buy a house. I have no reasonable expectation that if you get a 
warrant, you are going to go into my — any drawer in my bedroom. 
When I buy the house, I don’t have any expectation of privacy once 
you get a warrant to come. I do expect you to get one. 

I come from a time when I wasn’t quite sure the Chicago Police 
and law enforcement was actually getting warrants in the city of 
Chicago in the 1960’s to get that, so we want to be a little careful 
and make sure. I am trusting of you. If you were the FBI agent, 
I would say, no problem. Director Comey, come on in. 

But, unfortunately, there are human beings at all the different 
levels of government, and I just want to say that I am happy you 
came because I don’t have that expectation in my car. I don’t have 
that expectation — I don’t use the computer a lot to — I still write. 
I don’t have any expectation. 

But the difference is — and I think you have made and I think 
this Committee should take it into consideration — we do put a lot 
of information in these contraptions, and the reason we put them 
there is because we don’t want to put them on a notebook; we want 
to keep them private. But I really don’t have any expectation that 
once I put this, if you have a lawful warrant, that you should be 
able to get it, even from my computer. I think that’s where you are 

Could you — is that where you think — have I heard you right? 


Mr. COMEY. I do. I agree with you, except I think the case for 
privacy is even stronger than you said. You do have a reasonable 
expectation to privacy in your home, in your car, and in your de- 
vices. The government, under our Constitution, is required to over- 
come that by going to an independent judge, making a showing of 
probable cause, and getting a warrant. 

What we need to talk about as a country is we’re moving to a 
place where there are warrant-proof places in our life, and yes, 
these devices are spectacular, because they do hold our whole lives. 
They are different than a briefcase. They are different than a draw- 
er. So it is a source with — a place with a tremendous reasonable 
expectation of privacy. 

But if we’re going to move to a place where that is not possible 
to overcome that, that’s a world we’ve never lived in before in the 
United States. That has profound consequences for public safety. 
And all I am saying is we shouldn’t drift there, right? Companies 
that sell stuff shouldn’t tell us how to be. The FBI shouldn’t tell 
us how to be. The American people should say: “The world is dif- 
ferent. How do we want to be?” And figure that out. 

Mr. Gutierrez. Yeah, I think we’re in the same place then, be- 
cause I do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in my home. 
But if you go to court, you convince the judge, and you overcome 
it, I have never had any expectation that a court order, because I 
bought something, I am going to be able to overcome a court order. 
So I think we’re in the same place. 

So thank you so much. Director, for coming and sharing time. I 
hope to share more time with you so we can talk some more. 
Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Iowa, 
Mr. King, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Director, thanks for your testimony here and your leadership 
with the FBI. 

I am curious about this from a perspective that has to do with 
our global war against radical Islamic terrorists. And I have laid 
out a strategy to defeat that ideology. I would take it back to our 
ability some years past to be able to identify their cell phones and 
get into their cell phones in such a way that we also got into their 
heads, which drove them into the caves and really diminished a lot 
of their otherwise robust activity that A1 Qaeda might have carried 
out against us. I think that was a successful effort. 

Now we have global cyber operations going on with, I think by 
your numbers from a previous report I read, well over 100,000 ISIS 
activities on Twitter and other cyber activity in a single day. And 
so I am interested in how the parameters that have been examined 
thoroughly by a lot of the lawyers on this panel might apply to an 
all-out cyber warfare against ISIS and any of their affiliates or sub- 
ordinates that I think is necessary if we’re going to defeat that ide- 

And so I am thinking in terms of if this Congress might dimin- 
ish, slow down, or shut down access to this phone, that also means 
access to any other phone that they might be using; they would 
have a high degree of confidence that they could operate with a 
level of impunity in the cyber world out there. 


Do you have any comments you would like to make on the impli- 
cations that being locked out of an opportunity to unlock this phone 
might mean to the global war on terror that could be prosecuted 
in the next Administration aggressively across the fields of cyber 
warfare? And I would just add to that for the sake of enumerating 
them: financial warfare, educational warfare, and human intel- 
ligence, and the network that would be necessary, not just the ki- 
netic activity, to defeat radical Islamic terrorism. 

Mr. CoMEY. Thank you, Mr. King. 

This conversation we’re having today and that I hope will con- 
tinue is really important for domestic law enforcement, but it has 
profound implications for, among other things, our 
counterterrorism work. Because since Mr. Snowden’s revelations, 
terrorist tradecraft changed, and they moved immediately to 
encrypted apps for their communication in trying to find devices 
that were encrypted, wrap their lives in encryption, because they 
understand the power of encryption. 

And so there’s no place we see this collision between our love for 
privacy and the security of encryption and public safety than in 
fighting terrorism, especially ISIL. Because for the FBI’s responsi- 
bility, which is here in the United States, every day we’re looking 
for needles in a hay stack. And, increasingly, the most dangerous 
needles go invisible to us, because that’s when ISIL moves them to 
an encrypted app that’s end-to-end encrypted and a judge’s order 
is irrelevant there. 

That’s why this is such an urgent feature of our work. It has 
huge implications for law enforcement overwhelmingly, but it has 
profound implications in the fight against terrorism. 

Mr. King. Do you get any signals that the American public or the 
United States Congress is contemplating some of the things that 
you discussed here to the depth that it would be a component in 
the decisionmaking? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know. I know everybody’s interested in this 
and everybody, all thoughtful people see both sides of this and are 
trying to figure out how to resolve it, how to resolve it practically, 
how to resolve it technically. And the other challenge is — not to 
make it harder — there is no it. There isn’t a single it. There’s all 
different kinds of manifestations of this problem we call going 

So what I see is people of good will who care about privacy and 
safety wrestling with this. Court cases are important, but they are 
not going to solve this problem for us. 

Mr. King. Let me suggest that — I will just say: I think it’s a 
known and a given that ISIS or ISIL is seeking a nuclear device 
and has pretty much said that publicly. If we had a high degree 
of confidence that they had — that they were on the cusp of achiev- 
ing such capability and perhaps capability of delivering it, if that 
became part of the American consciousness, do you think that 
would change this debate that we’re having here today? 

Mr. COMEY. I do worry that it’s hard to have nuanced, com- 
plicated conversations like this in an emergency and in the wake 
of a disaster, which is why I think it’s so important we have this 
conversation now, because in the wake of something awful hap- 
pening, it will be hard to talk about this in a thoughtful, nuanced 


way. And so I think that’s why I so welcome the Chairman having 
this hearing, and having further conversations about it. 

Mr. King. Thank you, Director. And I will just state that my 
view is that I want to protect the constitutional rights of the Amer- 
ican people, and I would like to be able to have this framed in law 
that reflects our constitutional rights. But I would like to have us 
consider how we might keep a nation safe in the face of this and 
how we might prosecute a global war against radical Islam, even 
in the aftermath of a decision that might be made by either a judge 
or the United States Congress. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman. 

The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Bass, is recognized for 5 

Ms. Bass. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

And thank you. Director Comey, for your time and your patience 
with us today. 

I had a townhall meeting in my district on Sunday, and actually 
a couple hundred people showed up, and it was a general townhall 
meeting talking about issues that Congress is dealing with, and 
much to my surprise, this was a burning issue. And many of my 
constituents came to ask me questions, and I told them that they 
could suggest some questions and I would ask you. So maybe you 
could speak to some of my constituents today so I can send them 
a clip of your testimony. 

Basically, in general, they had a hard time believing — I mean, 
they were not supportive. They don’t want, you know, Apple to 
comply. But they had a hard time believing that the FBI couldn’t 
already do this. And so a couple of the questions were: How have 
so many others cracked iPhones and shared their findings with vid- 
eos and how-to articles? 

And given that you described it, not as a back door but getting 
the dogs, you know, away so that you can pick the lock, their ques- 
tion was: What other intelligence community agencies has the FBI 
worked with, considering there’s at least 12 in the government? Be- 
tween all of these agencies, how is it that you haven’t been able 
to call the dogs off and pick the lock? 

Mr. Comey. There are actually 16 other members of the U.S. in- 
telligence community. It pains me to say this, because I — in a way 
we benefit from the myth that is the product of maybe too much 
television. The only thing that’s true on television is we remain 
very attractive people, but we don’t have the capabilities that peo- 
ple sometimes on TV imagine us to have. If we could have done 
this quietly and privately, we would have done it. 

Ms. Bass. Right. 

Mr. Comey. This litigation is difficult. It’s especially difficult, as 
I said, for the people who were victimized in San Bernardino, and 
so we really can’t. As I said, there may be other models, other per- 
mutations and combinations where we have different capabilities, 
but I’m here to tell you here — and, again, maybe tonight someone 
will call us and say: I’ve thought of something. Apple is very good 
at what it does. It’s a wonderful company. It makes wonderful 
products, right? They have set out to design a phone that can’t be 


opened, and they’re darn near succeeding. I think with the 6 and 
heyond, they will have succeeded. That doesn’t make them bad peo- 
ple, that just poses a challenge for us that we’re not yet up to meet- 
ing without intervention from courts. 

Ms. Bass. Since you can clone iPhone contents to compatible 
hardware and test passwords on the clones without putting the 
original at risk, can’t you use so-called brute force methods to guess 
the passcode? 

Mr. COMEY. Not with the — I think this is what Mr. Issa was ask- 
ing about. I think a lot of tech experts ask, why can’t you mirror 
the phone in some way and then play with the mirror? For reasons 
I don’t fully understand, not possible in this circumstance. So we 
do want to try and brute force the phone; that is the multiple 
guesses. But we need first — we’ll do that ourselves, but we need re- 
moved the auto-erase function and the delay-between-guesses func- 
tion, which would make us take 10 years to guess it. If we have 
those removed, we can guess this phone’s password with our com- 
puting power in 26 minutes, is what we’re told, because we have 
enormous computing power in the U.S. Government, but we need 
to be able to bring it to bear without the phone killing itself 

Ms. Bass. Thank you. I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Idaho, 
Mr. Labrador, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Labrador. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you. Director, for being here. Thank you for what 
you’re doing. I know you have a very difficult job as you’re trying 
to balance toth security and privacy. 

I do have a few questions. As you’re looking at the laws that are 
in place, like GALEA and FISA, or the other different avenues that 
we’re talking about, something that concerns me is that this is very 
different than some of the examples that have been given here. For 
example, when you have — when you’re going into a home, if you’re 
asking for a key, if you go to the landlord, that key’s already made, 
and you can go to the landlord and you can say, “I have a warrant 
here,” and that key is made, “Can you please give me a key for 
that,” where the method of creating that key, even if the key does 
not exist, is already — does already exist. This is very different than 
that. Would you agree? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. You’re exactly right. There’s a difference be- 
tween, “Hey, landlord, you have this spare key; the judge directs 
you to give it to us,” and, “Hey, landlord, we need you to make a 
key for this lock.” 

Mr. Labrador. Yeah. 

Mr. CoMEY. And that’s a legal question as to whether the par- 
ticular statutory authority we’re using here, the All Writs Act, ex- 
tends to that. 

Mr. Labrador. Correct. 

Mr. CoMEY. We think in the government there’s a reasonable ar- 
gument to be made it does and should, and on the other side, law- 
yers for Apple argue it doesn’t, and that’s what the judge will sort 

Mr. Labrador. But this goes even one step further. In this sce- 
nario, the landlord can create the key, has the ability to create the 
key, and the technology to create the key already exists. In the 


Apple case, that’s not the case. They have never created the key 
that you’re asking for. Isn’t that correct? 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know whether that’s correct or not. 

Mr. Labrador. Well, as far as we know, as far as they’re letting 
us know, there’s no way for them, as they’re telling us — because if 
not, I think they would he violating the judge’s order. If they have 
an ability to do this, I do agree with you that they would be vio- 
lating the judge’s order, but what they’re telling us is that ability 
does not exist. Isn’t that correct? 

Mr. COMEY. I think that’s right. I think, obviously, their general 
counsels are very smart guys here; he can talk about this. But I 
think what they’re saying is: We can do it, but it would require us 
to sit at a keyboard and write new code that doesn’t currently 

Mr. Labrador. Correct. 

Mr. CoMEY. Whether there’s a meaningful distinction between 
that, and someone who already has a key legally is something a 
judge will have to sort out. 

Mr. Labrador. So what concerns me is the old legal maxim that, 
you know, bad cases make bad law. This is clearly a bad case. We 
all want you to get access to this phone through legal means, be- 
cause maybe it would uncover some of the problems that we have 
in the Middle East; maybe there’s some evidence in there that 
could really lead us to take some terrorists down. I think we are 
all there, but the problem is that this is a bad case. This is a per- 
son who, obviously, is dead, who has never given his code to some- 
body else. 

And I’m concerned that, as we’re looking down this road, what 
we’re doing is we’re opening the door for other things that could 
actually be detrimental to our safety and security. For example, I 
think you’ve testified many times that we’re getting hacked all the 
time. Isn’t that correct? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. 

Mr. Labrador. So maybe one of the reasons that Apple is refus- 
ing to do this or is hesitant to do something like this, because they 
know that even they get hacked, and when you open — when you 
create that key that doesn’t exist at all right now, you’re actually 
opening up every other phone that’s out there. Do you see how that 
could be a concern? 

Mr. CoMEY. I see the argument. The question the judge will have 
to decide is, is that a reasonable argument? 

Mr. Labrador. Because you 

Mr. COMEY. Sorry. 

Mr. Labrador. No. I’m sorry. 

Mr. CoMEY. Go ahead. 

Mr. Labrador. You said that Apple is highly — they are highly 
professional in keeping secrets. Would you say that the Federal 
Government also has very good people that are highly professional 
in keeping secrets? 

Mr. COMEY. Parts of it. 

Mr. Labrador. Me too. 

Recently, we’ve learned that there’s been a hacking incident at 
the IRS. Are you familiar with that? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. 


Mr. Labrador. So that’s what I’m concerned about. The moment 
that you open up that door, the moment that you open up that key 
that doesn’t currently exist, you’re actually allowing all these hack- 
ers that are out there — and some of them are our enemies that are 
trying to do us harm, whether it’s economic harm or whether it’s 
actual terrorism. They’re out there looking for ways to actually get 
into your iPhone, into my iPhone, into everybody else’s iPhone, and 
at some point — that’s why you have such a difficult job — is we have 
to balance that safety and security. 

Do you think that this capability that you’re asking for can only 
be used pursuant to a warrant? 

Mr. CoMEY. The capability that the judge has directed Apple to 

Mr. Labrador. Correct. 

Mr. CoMEY. I think that’s the way it’s — that’s the procedural pos- 
ture of it. There’s a warrant and the judge has issued an order. 

Mr. Labrador. That’s how it is issued right now, but do you 
think that that can only be obtained through a warrant? Are you 
seeking to obtain it later through other means other than war- 

Mr. COMEY. I don’t know how we would if it’s in Apple’s posses- 
sion. Unless they voluntarily gave it to someone, there would have 
to be a judicial process 

Mr. Labrador. Okay. 

Mr. COMEY [continuing]. If they maintained it afterwards. 

Mr. Labrador. Thank you very much. I’ve run out of time. 
Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Richmond, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Richmond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Before I start. I’d like to enter into the record two articles. One 
is from the Toronto Star, titled “Encrypted Evidence Is Increas- 
ingly Hampering Criminal Investigations, Police Say.” And another 
one is from the Baton Rouge Advocate, which says, “The Brittney 
Mills Murder Case Has Put Baton Rouge in the Middle of the Na- 
tional Cell Phone Encryption Debate.” 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection, they will be made part of the 

[The information referred to follows:] 


Encrypted evidence is 
increasingly hampering 
criminal investigations, police 

Not even search warrants make a difference 

BY: Mark Greenblatt, Scripps News, and Robert Cribb, The Toronto Star 
POSTED: 2:58 PM, Nov 4, 2015 
UPDATED: 3:54 AM, Nov 6, 2015 

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Barbara Mills, a retired nurse in Baton Rouge, has been 
tormented for seven months by questions no mother should have to ask: Who killed her 
29-year-old daughter Brittney in cold blood, and why is new privacy technology allowed 
to potentially stop the police from finding out? 

Brittney’s murder is only one of many serious crimes in the United States and Canada 
that could go unsolved because Apple and Google are deploying strong encryption on 
cell phones and messaging applications that even the cops can't break through. The 
advanced privacy technology, introduced after Edward Snowden revealed the NSA’s 
warrantless surveillance, is designed to keep alt prying eyes away from files or messages 
if the correct password is not used. 

In a joint investigation, Scripps News and The Toronto Star have found the very 
encryption that has become so prized by technology firms and many consumers is also 
becoming a critical tool for child molesters, drug dealers and other criminals who can 
hide evidence the authorities say they can no longer access, even with a search warrant. 
Even a law-abiding citizen wbo loses a loved one, like Barbara Mills, is now unable to 
recover files stored on the fully encrypted phones if they didn’t obtain their relative’s 
password in advance. 

It’s a battle being waged between law enforcement in the U.S., Canada and other 


countries and privacy advocates, with both sides claiming they’re trying to protect your 
safety. Police agencies contend they are losing critical tools to track and arrest 
criminals. Privacy advocates argue that governments around the world have lost the 
trust of the public, while arguing encryption protects vulnerable groups. They often say 
that investigators have other tools at their disposal to solve crimes and do not need 
access to text messages or stored data. 

At this stage of the battle, law enforcement is losing. Scripps and the Toronto Star made 
numerous requests over several months across all levels of government asking for 
specific cases where investigations were thwarted because of encryption. Law 
enforcement agencies had many anecdotes, but are just now starting to collect data. 

But in Baton Rouge, local authorities have no hesitation blaming Apple’s latest 
encryption for bringing their search for the person who shot Brittney Mills to a near 
halt. Mills, a single mother who was eight months pregnant with her second child, 
opened her apartment door late one evening last April. Police believe she knew the 
killer. She refused to let the still unknown person borrow her car, they believe, and was 
shot shortly after. Her unborn but nearly full-term baby boy clung to life for a week 
before dying. Mills leaves behind a daughter, now lo years old. 

Police are convinced clues to the murderer’s identity lie inside the victim’s Apple iPhone. 
“She did say she had a diary in her phone and that everything negative that happened to 
her was in that diary,” her mom Barbara said. “If that phone could help solve that case 
then I think law enforcement and law enforcement cilone should be able to go into those 
phones and access whatever it is they need to access. You have two murders here. Not 
one, but two.” 

But like many consumers, Brittney Mills never shared her phone’s password with 
anyone. Baton Rouge authorities obtained her family’s permission to look inside of it but 
could not get past Apple’s encryption even after reaching out to the FBI and the Secret 
Service for help. 

“I’m at a dead end right now and I need that information to make sure we fully 
investigate this case and try to bring justice to this family and our community,” East 


Baton Rouge District Attorney Hillar Moore said. 

Compounding the problem, if police or any user enters the wrong password in to an iOS 
device six times in a row, a message will display saying the device is disabled. 

So with the Mills murder case going cold. Baton Rouge authorities obtained a search 
warrant this September in an attempt to force Apple to help them break through the 
company's encryption. But two days after receiving the court-ordered search 
warrant, Apple’s Privacy & Law Enforcement Compliance team delivered the bad news 
to homicide investigators, concluding in a brief email that stated, “Since the device is 
running iOS version 8 or a later version, the iOS extraction cannot be completed.” 

Investigators were able to successfully retrieve a trove of information from Brittney’s 
Apple iCloud account, but they say the last time a backup of her phone oceurred was 
months before the crime, meaning her most recent communications and activities 
remain unknown to police, and her personal diary was not included in any of the files 
recovered from the iCloud backup. 

“This encryption just tells you, tells drug dealers, tells killers, (to) do what you want vdth 
impunity because law enforcement can’t get into your phone,” Moore said. 

Apple declined repeated requests to comment on the record about the Mills murders, or 
any related issues. 

But in an open letter to customers that addresses the topic more broadly, Apple’s CEO 
Tim Cook explains on the company’s Website “we respect your privacy and protect it 
with strong encryption.” 

Google has announced full-disk encryption in its newest Android 6.0 Marhshmallow 
operating system, which was launched in late October. Law enforcement officials remain 
in early stages of collecting information about the impact of Apple’s iOS8, released one 
year ago, but in some jurisdictions the numbers are beginning to trickle out. 

In Manhattan, the office of District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. says that in less than 12 
months “roughly 111 iPhones running iOS 8 or newer were inaccessible” to its staffers. 


Joan Vallero, a spokesperson for Vance, says the time period tracked was from last 
October 2014 to this September. 

Vallero says the lack of access disrupted active investigations into the attempted murder 
of three individuals, the repeated sexual abuse of a child, an ongoing sex trafficking ring, 
and numerous assaults and robberies, among other everyday crimes. She said not every 
disrupted crime will be unsolvable, but says the delays experienced by investigators can 
keep criminals in communities for longer periods. 

The battle over encryption crosses international borders. The Toronto Police Service 
revealed to Scripps News and The Star how pedophiles are catching on and even 
coaching each other on how to use the latest encryption advances to conceal evidence 
from authorities. Toronto Detective Paul Krawczyk of the child exploitation division 
entered one of the “boy love” online communities he regularly monitors that he says is 
one of many virtual meetup spots for pedophiles. 

From his desk, he located a conversation taking place that explained how American “boy 
lovers” have an advantage over those in some other nations, noting how no U.S. laws 
exist that compel criminals to hand over their private passwords that police would use to 
decode their files. The online user wrote, “in the U.S. (not turning over passwords) won’t 
get you jail time. It will get the cops to abandon the investigation against you without 
filing charges. Just invoke the s* Amendment and that’s the end of it.” 

Another user provided advice to another “boy lover,” instructing him to begin using a 
specific text messaging service that encrypts text messages, so that if police ever come 
knocking with a search warrant “they won’t get anything off of your phone when it 
comes to chat.” 

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been trying to raise the alarm in the United 
States with repeated trips to Capitol Hill, but has so far been rebuffed. Technology firms 
and privacy advocates pushed back strongly, launching a number of campaigns, such as 
SaveCrypto. The initiatives petitioned the White House to side against groups 
advocating for a key for law enforcement to unlock encrypted devices if officers have a 
search warrant. In September, Twitter signed on to the petition, joining Dropbox and 


others. Last month, the White House signaled it would not, for now, push for the 

Privacy advocates such as the Silicon Valley-based Electronic Frontier Foundation 
declared victory. 

“You can’t make a back door in a house that only law enforcement can enter,” said EFF 
staff attorney Nate Cardozo. “If Apple were to compromise the encryption on the behest 
of the FBI for instance, and I was travelling in China or France or Israel or Russia or 
Brazil, I would no longer be secure in knowing that my iPhone wasn’t being intercepted 
by the local authorities there.” 

Cardozo says that domestically businesses also could face an increased risk of corporate 
espionage if a back door were built in. 

A research paper published this July by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and 
co-written by 15 of the world’s top cryptographers and computer scientists concluded 
that requiring a back door for law enforcement would be akin to “mandating 

Investigators, left to deal with encrypted operating systems on cell phones, face other 
mounting challenges. Popular new messaging applications such as Apple’s iMessage and 
Facebook’s WhatsApp also automatically encrypt messages by default. 

“I think encryption is a good thing. I think it provides security for the public in their 
online behaviors,” said Scott Tod, deputy commissioner of the Ontario Provincial 
Police. “I also think that there’s an issue in regards to building a wall too high and a 
moat too deep.” 

Tod says about 80 percent of the digital communications officials in his Ontario office 
now obtain as evidence after a court-issued search warrant are “as good as garbage.” 

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police cites another ease in which it attempted to 
intercept and read encrypted e-mails among a group of high-level drug traffickers. Other 
law enforcement agencies wanted the Canadian police agency to either dismantle the 


communication network or decrypt the messages. 

“With judicial authorization in hand, the RCMP dedicated thousands of hours to this 
effort, but was ultimately not successful because of various technical and Jurisdictional 
challenges,” Sgt. Harold Pfleiderer, a spokesperson for the RCMP, wrote in an email. 

Last week, a working group of local, state and federal officials formed that will begin to 
collect statistics across the nation, said David Matthews, the chair of the technology and 
digital evidence committee of the Association of State Criminal Investigative Agencies. 
Matthews admits the law enforcement community as a whole has not prioritized 
collecting the statistics needed to communicate what they are seeing on the ground. 

If you have a tip or an update about encryption 's impact on criminal investigations, 
email and 

Angela M. Hill (@AngelaMHill), Scripps National Investigative Producer, contributed 
to this report. 

(This project was jointly reported by Scripps News and The Toronto Star.) 


The Brittney Mills murder case has 
put Baton Rouge in the middle of 
the national cellphone encryption 

Slaying draws BR into national debate 

By Danielle Maddox 

Baton Rouge detectives can’t get into murder victim Brittney 
Mills’ iPhone, which they hope holds clues to a killing that so 
far has stumped them. 

Why would a cellphone be encrypted in a way that thwarts 
local police investigating a homicide? 

Photo from Faoebook - Brittney 

The answer lies in the fallout from Edward Snowden’s disclosure that the National 
Security Agency was vacuuming up Internet data and information from the several 
billion phone calls Americans made each day. The revelation prompted Apple and 
Google to allow people to make it impossible to open their smartphones without a 
pass code — drawing Baton Rouge into a national debate. 

If the owner of a phone dies, as in Mills’ case, and hasn’t told anyone the pass code, 
the manufacturers claim even they cannot access the device. And if the owner of a 
phone is a criminal who simply refuses to tell authorities the pass code, the same 
could hold true. 

That can lock the contents — photos, text messages, voicemail, email, contacts, call 
history, iTunes material and notes — inside the phone for good. 

If you don’t put in the pass code, “you can’t extract human readable data from the 
phone,” said Jonathan Rajewski, associate professor of digital forensics at 
Champlain College in Vermont. “Even if you took the chip and hooked it up to 
another device, the information would still be encrypted.” 

Now, government and the tech industry are at loggerheads: Should companies 
guarantee the government, particularly law enforcement, access to these fully 


encrypted devices, or will that weaken the enciyption software, rendering it useless 
against hackers and foreign governments? 

From FBI Director James Comey to East Baton Rouge Parish District Attorney Hillar 
Moore, law enforcement has told Congress that companies must find a way to give 
access to police agencies with a search warrant. 

But tech industries have asked President Barack Obama to embrace encryption in its 
policies and resist regulating their security software. 

In August 2013, Obama created an advisory committee on cybersecurity after 
Snowden, a former government contractor, pubhcized government programs that 
collect electronic data on Americans and foreign governments. The committee 
concluded the government and U.S. companies should not only embrace encryption 
but also should increase their use of it to better protect data. 

Despite law enforcement and intelligence concerns, the committee further 
recommended the U.S. government should not “subvert, undermine, weaken, or 
make vulnerable” encryption software widely available on the market. 

Those who support strong encryption claim it prevents crime, specifically hacking, 
and protects personal property. Apple and other players in the tech industry say the 
encryption upgrades made to their software mends the trust they had with 
international companies that was damaged during the Snowden leaks. 

Critics of the upgraded encryption argue that while privacy is important, law 
enforcement needs legal access to encrypted phones when an investigation requires 
it. Criminals, like the one who shot Mills, go free when vital clues remain locked 
away on digital devices, they say. 

The East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff s Office said it has begun to see more encrypted 
phones during investigations, and Moore, the parish district attorney, recently wrote 
to in opposition to Apple’s latest encryption upgrade. 

“Apple advertises this as a plus for people who buy their phones,” Moore said, 
noting such encryption makes the phone ideal for criminals. 

U.S. Sen. Da%id Vitter, a Republican, said lawmakers are looking for a way to balance 
privacy with public safety but have not found a comprehensive solution. 

The debate expanded well beyond individual privacy at a July hearing before the 
U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, on which Vitter sits. 

Peter Swire, a professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology, supports encryption. 
Swire argued at the committee hearing that secure communications play a vital role 


in national security. 

Jim Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police, says it’s 
“convoluted logic” to believe that providing a way for police to open a cellphone 
could cause a national security problem, noting that enciyption can stymie efforts to 
prevent terror attacks or investigate such crimes after they occur. 

“It causes a much bigger national security issue when law enforcement can’t get in,” 
he said. “In making that technology available to criminals, you inadvertently make 
them harder to catch.?? 

Harley Geiger, senior councilman of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a 
nonprofit that advocates on Internet issues, argues that encryption makes us safer 
even though it can make information more difficult for law enforcement to access. 

“Our smartphones and our Internet communications cariy a great deal of sensitive 
content, and it’s important to protect that content from unauthorized parties,” he 
said. “There is a safety trade-out no matter which way you go.” 

Geiger said companies like Apple and Google are simply responding to market 

“Users, consumers and businesses that use digital service are demanding strong 
security,” Geiger said. 

Requiring U.S. companies to allow access for government surveillance would put 
them at a competitive disadvantage in an international industry, he said. 

Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. claims encryption has changed the 
dynamic between law enforcement and the public, and the change is for the worse, 
saying 74 investigations in his jurisdiction have been disrupted because of 

“As it stands today, Apple and Google have decided who can access key evidence in 
criminal investigations,” he told the Judiciary Committee hearing in July. 

He added that he’d like Apple and Google to come to the table to discuss the 
problem, but as of now, they won’t. 

Pasco is on the same page. 

“This is the kind of situation that tends to just simmer until there’s some sort of 
horrible tragedy or we’ve reached our crisis stage in sheer numbers of crimes not 
solved because of a lack of available data,” Pasco said. 


Moore, Baton Rouge’s district attorney, says the encryption problem “hits home 
quickly with the Mills family.” 

Mills, 29, and eight months pregnant, was fatally shot Anril 24 at her Ship Drive 
apartment. Authorities believe Mills opened the door for someone who wanted to 
use her car and was shot when she refused. Doctors delivered her son, Brenton 
Mills, who died a week later . 

Investigators said the shooter likely was someone Mills knew. They have looked to 
her cellphone for e\idence . but her iPhone uses iOS8 software that blocks anyone 
without the pass code. 

IPhone owners can choose to use Touch ID, which unlocks the phone with the 
owner’s fingerprint, but Mills used only a pass code, Moore said. 

Apple allows only a few consecutive pass code guesses before it returns the phone to 
factory settings — with none of the user’s information on it. 

Moore said investigators are increasingly encountering problems with encryption. 
On several occasions, police have tried to search for information about drug dealers 
from the phones of people who fatally overdosed but did not know the access codes, 
he said. 

Sgt. Brian J. Blache, of the East Baton Rouge Sheriffs Office, said as more people 
use cellphones for everyday tasks, the information stored in them will be 
increasingly useful. 

About 90 percent of the Sheriff s Office cases involves some type of cellphone or 
computer analysis, Blache said. 

If nothing can be extracted from a cellphone, Blache said, the Sheriff s Office will 
lock it up in evidence with the hope that technology down the line will allow them 
to open it later. 

Law enforcement officers can check other devices, including computers, to see if 
people backed up cellphone data there, or virtual platforms where people may store 
emails, call logs and, in some cases, old text messages from their phone. Often, 
information about where someone has been is available from cellphone service 
pro\iders or from Internet app companies that serve up information based on the 
user’s location. 

Getting that information can be obtained with a warrant. But Blache noted some of 
that data depends on what location settings people select. 

Also, Rajewski said Internet companies and mobile serxice providers keep such 


information for business purposes, not specifically for law enforcement’s benefit, 
and the retention period varies from company to company. He said the higher level 
of security will be more widespread moving fonvard as people buy new phones with 
the software needed to nin the encryption programs. 

Moore said a law should be passed prohibiting manufacturers from selling 
smartphones and mobile devices that the government cannot access. 

Pasco, the director of the National Fraternal Order of Police, agrees that some sort of 
law needs to be put in place. 

“Every day and week that we waste time means more crimes unsolved and more 
terrorist incidents unprevented,” he said. 

Copyright® 2015, Capital City Press LLC * 7290 Bluebonnet Blvd., Baton Rouge, LA 70810 * All 
Rights Reserved 


Mr. Richmond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And let me just say, and Director Comey, you have mentioned 
the Brittney Mills case a number of times, and I just want to paint 
the scenario for everyone in the room and put a face with it. This 
is Brittney Mills, and this is Brittney Mills almost 8 months preg- 
nant with her daughter. In May of last year, Brittney was mur- 
dered in my district. She was a mother. She was 8 months preg- 
nant with her second child at the time. Someone came to her door 
and killed her, and a couple days later, her unhorn child — or horn 
child also died. And according to her family and her friends, she 
kept a very detailed diary in her phone. And her family, who are 
here today, Ms. Mills, Ms. Barbara Mills, will you please stand, 
and Tia and Roger, her family would like the phone opened so that 
our district attorney, who is also here today — thank you for stand- 
ing — our district attorney, who is also here today, Hillar Moore, can 
use that to attempt to find the murderer who committed this crime. 

And I guess my question is, we balance privacy, public safety, 
and criminal justice, but are we in danger of creating an under- 
ground criminal sanctuary for some very disturbed people, and how 
do we balance that? 

Mr. Comey. We are in danger of that. Until these awesome de- 
vices — and that’s what makes it so painful. They’re wonderful. 
Until this, there was no closet in America, no safe in America, no 
garage in America, no basement in America that could not be en- 
tered with a judge’s order. We now live in a different world, and 
that’s the point we’re trying to make here. Before we drift to a 
place where a whole lot of other families in incredible pain look at 
other district attorneys and say, “What do you mean you can’t; you 
have a court order,” before we drift to that place, we’ve got to talk 
about it, because privacy is awesome, but stopping this kind of sav- 
agery and murder and pedophilia and all the other things that hide 
in the dark spaces in American life is also incredibly important to 

That’s why this conversation matters so much, but it’s also why 
we have to talk to each other. There are no demons in this con- 
versation; we care about the same things. But it is urgent, and 
there’s no more painful circumstance to demonstrate it than in the 
death of that beautiful woman and her baby. 

Mr. Richmond. Well, and I do appreciate your saying we have 
to talk to each other, because just in the small time that I was able 
to put the representatives of Apple and the district attorney in the 
room, I think we made some progress and maybe some alter- 
natives, and maybe we’ll get somewhere. But it is a very difficult 
balancing act, and I think the people from Apple are very well in- 
tentioned and have some real concerns. 

But let me ask you this. I took a congressional delegation trip 
over to the Ukraine. And when we landed our plane, we were on 
the runway, and our security advisors came on to the back and 
said, if you don’t want your phone hacked and people to have ac- 
cess to your text messages, your pictures, your emails, and every- 
thing else, we advise you to power your phone off and leave it on 
the plane. And no one is in close enough proximity right now to do 
it, so if you need to make a call, make a call, but when we get clos- 
er to the terminal, you need to power that phone down. 


So does Ukraine have better technology — well, they were really 
worried about Russian hackers. But does Russia have that much 
of a technology advantage over us that they can get into my phone 
while I’m on it and it’s in my possession, and we can’t get into a 
phone that we have in our possession? 

Mr. CoMEY. The difference — and I’m going to be careful what I 
say in an open setting — is that some countries have different con- 
trol over their infrastructure and require providers in their country 
to make accommodations that we do not require here to give them 
greater surveillance capabilities than we would ever imagine in the 
United States. That’s the first thing. 

The second thing is we are a rule of law country. The FBI is not 
cracking into your phone or listening to your communications ex- 
cept under the rule of law and going to a judge. Those are the two 
big differences. 

But countries have capabilities and, in part, based on accom- 
modations that device makers and providers have made in those 
countries that are different than in this country. 

Mr. Richmond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see my time has ex- 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from 
Washington State, Ms. DelBene, for 5 minutes. 

Ms. DelBene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you. Director Comey, for being with us and for all of 
your time. 

I’ve worked my career in technology on email and mobile commu- 
nications and constantly heard from customers, both consumers 
and businesses and even the government, to make sure that infor- 
mation was protected and that devices were secure. And in your 
testimony, you state that you’re simply asking to ensure that you 
can continue to obtain electronic information and evidence, and you 
seem to be asking technology companies to freeze in place or revert 
back to systems that might have been easier to access, but don’t 
you think in general that that’s much — an oversimplification of this 
issue, because we all know that bad actors want to exploit 
vulnerabilities to break in to any number of things, from a phone, 
a personal device, to our power grid? These things aren’t static. 
They’re changing constantly, and they’re getting smarter every day. 
The bad actors are getting smarter every day, and we need to be 
smarter every day in terms of protecting information. 

So, in that type of environment, how would you expect the tech- 
nology company not to continue to evolve their security measures 
to keep up with new threats that we see? 

Mr. Comey. First of all, I would expect security companies and 
technology companies to continue to try and improve their security. 
That’s why it’s important that all of us talk about this, because it’s 
not the company’s job to worry about public safety, right? It’s the 
FBI’s job. Congress’s job, and a lot of other folks in the government, 
so I don’t put that on the companies. But the other thing that con- 
cerns me a little bit is this sense that if we have a world where 
people comply with government warrants, it must be insecure. And 
I don’t buy that, because there are lots of providers today of email 
service, of tech service who have highly secure systems who, be- 
cause of their business models, visualize the information in plain 


text on their servers so they comply with court orders. I have not 
heard people say their systems are insecure. They simply have cho- 
sen a different business model. 

So I actually don’t think it’s — again, a lot of people may disagree 
with me. I actually don’t think in the main it’s a technological 
problem. It’s a business model problem. That doesn’t solve it, but 
that gets us away from this it’s impossible nonsense. 

Ms. DelBene. But we know more and more, in fact, we’re see- 
ing — we’re talking about phones today, but we are talking about 
the growth in the Internet of things of more and more personal de- 
vices where security will be even more critical, and so it’s hard to 
say — you’re talking about a world where it’s confined to the way 
the world works today. I think that absolutely is not the situation 
that we’re facing. We’re seeing evolution every day, and these are 
devices that are connected to networks, and information is flowing, 
and that information might be someone’s financial information or 
personal information that if it is exploited would create a security 
issue itself 

Mr. CoMEY. I agree. 

Ms. DelBene. So don’t you believe that encryption has an impor- 
tant role to play in protecting security? 

Mr. CoMEY. Vital. 

Ms. DelBene. So, now, when we’ve talked about what role Con- 
gress plays versus what role the courts would play, and you’ve kind 
of talked about both in different scenarios. You’ve talked about pri- 
vacy versus security and that Congress should play a role there but 
that the courts should decide whether or not there’s a security 
breach if there’s a piece of technology that breaks into a device and 
whether or not there’s a concern that that will be widely available. 
Yet the tension isn’t really between just privacy and security. It’s 
between security and security and protecting people’s information. 
So how do you — where do you think Congress plays a role versus 
the courts when you’ve talked about both of them in your testimony 

Mr. Comey. I think the courts have a job to, in particular cases, 
interpret the laws that Congress has passed throughout the history 
of this country to try and decide: The government is seeking this 
relief; does that fit within the statute? That’s the courts’ job, and 
they’re very, very good at it. 

The larger societal problem we have is this collision — that I 
think you’ve said well — ^between privacy and security; very difficult 
to solve it case by case by case. We have to ask ourselves, how do 
we want to govern ourselves? If you are a manufacturer of devices 
in the United States or you provide communication services in the 
United States, what are our, as a country, what are our expecta- 
tions of you and demands of you? It’s hard for me to see that being 
worked out on a common law basis, honestly, but it’s going to be, 
because the issue is joined every single day in our law enforcement 
work. If nobody else gets involved, the courts will have to figure it 

Ms. DelBene. This isn’t just an issue of U.S. companies alone, 
because clearly there’s access to technology that could be developed 
in other countries that we’ll not have access to and that’s widely 
available today and people can use. But, also, then it is important. 


we have laws that are centuries and decades old that have not kept 
up with the way the world works today, and so it is very important 
that Congress plays a role, because if courts are going to be inter- 
preting those laws and those laws were written with no awareness 
of what’s happening today, then Congress needs to play a role of 
making sure we have laws that are up-to-date and setting that 
standard so that courts can then follow. 

Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentlewoman and recog- 
nizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. Jeffries. 

Mr. Jeffries. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you, Mr. Comey, for your presence here today. And 
as one of my colleagues mentioned, your candor and open dialogue 
and communication is much appreciated, and it’s not always the 
case with high-level government witnesses and others. 

You testified today that you don’t question Apple’s motives in 
connection with the San Bernardino case. Is that correct? 

Mr. Comey. Correct. 

Mr. Jeffries. And you also testified that there are no demons in 
this conversation, true? 

Mr. Comey. Correct. I hope not. 

Mr. Jeffries. But the Department of Justice has questioned the 
company’s motives in defending the privacy of the American people. 
Isn’t that right? 

Mr. Comey. I don’t know that they’ve questioned their motives, 
in the sense that attributed sort of that they’re acting with evil in- 
tent or something. I think they’ve — I remember a filing the depart- 
ment said where they think a lot of Apple’s position has to do with 
its market power, which I, frankly, is not an illegitimate motive. 

Mr. Jeffries. In fact, in the motion to compel that you referred 
to, I believe the prosecutor said that: “Apple’s current refusal to 
comply with the court’s order, despite the technical feasibility of 
doing so, appears to be based on its concern for its business model 
and public brand marketing strategy.” 

Is that the statement that you’re referring to, sir? 

Mr. Comey. Yeah. And I think that’s — that’s fair. I bet that’s ac- 
curate. Apple has a legal obligation — because I used to be the gen- 
eral counsel of a public company — to maximize shareholder value. 
They’re a business, and so I would hope that’s part of their motiva- 
tion. And it’s not a bad thing if it’s entirely their motivation. Their 
job is not to worry about public safety. That is our job, all of us 
in this room who work for the government. 

Mr. Jeffries. William Bratton is the police commissioner of the 
New York City Police Department. Is that right? 

Mr. Comey. Yes. 

Mr. Jeffries. That’s the largest department in the country? 

Mr. Comey. Yes. 

Mr. Jeffries. And he’s one of the most respected law enforce- 
ment professionals in the country. Would you agree with that? 

Mr. Comey. I agree with that very, very much. 

Mr. Jeffries. Now, at a February 18 press conference in New 
York City, publicly accused Apple of corporate irresponsibility. Are 
you familiar with that remark, sir? 

Mr. Comey. I’m not. 


Mr. Jeffries. Okay. Do you agree with that strident statement, 
that Apple is engaging in corporate irresponsibility 

Mr. CoMEY. I’m 

Mr. Jeffries [continuing]. By vindicating its 

Mr. Comey. I don’t know that Bill said that, but I’m not going 
to characterize it that way. I don’t think they’re acting irrespon- 
sibly. I think they’re acting as a corporation in their self-interest, 
which is the way — which is the engine of innovation and enterprise 
in this country. 

Mr. Jeffries. Fundamentally, as it relates to the position of 
those of us who are on the Judiciary Committee, as well as Mem- 
bers in the House and in the Senate, guardians of the Constitution, 
this is not about marketing or corporate irresponsibility, correct, 
this debate? 

Mr. Comey. I hope not. I mean, I hope part of it is, and that’s 
a voice to listen to, but they sell phones. They don’t sell civil lib- 
erties. They don’t sell public safety. That’s our business to worry 

Mr. Jeffries. Right. But in terms of our perspective, this is real- 
ly about fundamental issues of importance as it relates to who we 
are as a country, the Fourth Amendment of the United States Con- 
stitution, the reasonableness of government intrusion, the rule of 
law, the legitimate centuries-old concern as it relates to govern- 
ment overreach and the damage that that can do. This is fun- 
damentally a big picture debate about some things that are very 
important to who we are as a country, correct? 

Mr. Comey. I agree completely. 

Mr. Jeffries. Okay. Now, in terms of the technology that’s avail- 
able today, Americans seem to have the opportunity to choose be- 
tween privacy or unfettered access to data which can reveal the far 
reaches of their life to a third party, to a government, to a bad 
actor. Would you agree that there’s an opportunity that the tech- 
nology is providing for Americans to choose privacy? 

Mr. Comey. I don’t agree with that framing, because it sounds 
like you’re framing it as we either have privacy or we have unfet- 
tered access by bad actors. I don’t accept that premise. 

Mr. Jeffries. Okay. So let me ask a few questions. One of the 
obstacles to unfettered access is the passcode, correct? The 

Mr. Comey. Yeah. 

Mr. Jeffries. A four-number or a six-number passcode. 

Mr. Comey. I naturally quibble because I’m a lawyer, but I’m 
just stuck on “unfettered” 

Mr. Jeffries. Okay. 

Mr. Comey [continuing]. But one of the obstacles to access to a 

Mr. Jeffries. Let me drop “unfettered.” 

Mr. Comey. Okay. 

Mr. Jeffries. The passcode is an obstacle, correct? 

Mr. Comey. Correct. Correct. 

Mr. Jeffries. Now, you can choose a passcode or choose not to 
activate a passcode, correct? 

Mr. Comey. I think that’s right. 


Mr. Jeffries. Okay. Now, whether you back up your system or 
not is an issue as it relates to access, correct? In other words, if 
you don’t back up your system, you don’t have access, correct, to 
the cloud? 

Mr. Comfy. Yeah. I think if you don’t back up your system to 
the cloud, there’s nothing in the cloud that could be obtained by a 

Mr. Jeffries. Right. Now, with respect to auto erase, that is a 
choice that’s being made. In other words, you have to actually af- 
firmatively choose auto erase. If you didn’t choose it, in this par- 
ticular case or in any other case, eventually your computer is pow- 
erful enough to get access to the data, correct? 

Mr. COMEY. I think that’s right for the 5C. I think that’s right. 
And folks from Apple could tell you better. I think for the later 
models, it’s not a choice, but I think it’s a — I’m reasonably con- 
fident it’s a choice for the 5C. 

Mr. Jeffries. My time has expired, but I think it’s important as 
we frame this debate to understand that it is actually the Amer- 
ican citizen that is choosing on at least three different occasions in 
three different ways the value of privacy, and that’s something that 
we should respect as Congress attempts to craft a solution. 

Mr. CoMEY. Okay. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Rhode Island, Mr. Cicilline, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you. Director Comey, for your service to our country. 
Thank you for being here today and for the outstanding work of the 
men and women at the FBI. 

We all, of course, acknowledge the incredible horrors of the San 
Bernardino attack, but I think, in many ways, what we’re strug- 
gling with, as Ms. DelBene said, not necessarily security versus 
privacy, but security versus security. And the real argument that 
the danger that exists for the misuse of this new technology by for- 
eign agents, by terrorists, by bad actors, by criminals will actually 
make us less safe in the long term. And while it might achieve 
your objective in the short term in this particular case, that the im- 
plications in terms of our own national security and personal secu- 
rity pose greater dangers. I think that’s what at least I’m strug- 
gling with. 

I appreciate you said this is the hardest question you’ve con- 
fronted, because I think it is a hard one. But the first thing I want 
to ask is, this is different, would you agree, than all the examples 
that have been used about producing items in your custody. This 
is a different kind of one, because it’s actually compelling a third 
party to produce and create intellectual property which doesn’t 
exist today. 

Mr. Comey. I understand that to be Apple’s argument. I don’t 
know enough about the other possible comparisons to give you a 
thoughtful response, but, yes, I understand that. 

Mr. Cicilline. But don’t you think it’s hard to even imagine how 
a court ultimately enforces that, because you have to sort of get 
into the head of the engineers to figure out did they actually com- 
ply with what the government order is directing them to create. 


I mean, I’m not saying it’s not something you’re not allowed to 
ask for, but it is different, it seems to me, than simply asking peo- 
ple to produce that which they are in possession of, custodians of 

Mr. CoMEY. I see that. I mean, I heard someone earlier say 
there’s a difference between a landlord who has a key in his pocket 
and you say, “You got to give us the key,” and, ‘You don’t have one. 
Go make one for that door.” 

Mr. CiCiLLlNE. Well, this will be more than 

Mr. CoMEY. And the question for the judge is what’s 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. Not just go make one, because that knowing how 
to make keys exists, but to develop a whole new technology and in- 
tellectual property. So I just want — I raise that because I think we 
have to acknowledge it’s different and then decide what to do with 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. But in addition to that, you said repeatedly that 
the government doesn’t have the ability to do this already. And, as 
you know, there was a decision yesterday by Magistrate Judge 
Orenstein — I’d ask unanimous consent that that memorandum and 
order be made part of the record — in which he actually 

Mr. Goodlatte. It already is part of the record. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. Okay. Which he — and he goes through and says 
the All Writs Act doesn’t apply. GALEA prohibits this by omission, 
and I think in a very clear way. But in addition to that, he goes 
on to say that the government argued in an unrelated case that the 
government actually has the ability to do this, the Department of 
Homeland Security Investigations, that they are in possession of 
technology that would allow its forensic technicians to override the 
passcode security feature on the subject iPhone and obtain the 

So I think this is a very important question for me. If, in fact — 
is it in fact the case that the government doesn’t have the ability, 
including the Department of Homeland Security Investigations, 
and all of the other intelligence agencies to do what it is that you 
claim is necessary to access this information? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yes. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. Because it is very — the answer’s yes? 

Mr. COMEY. That is correct. And I don’t know. I think — I could 
be wrong, but I think the phone in the case from Brooklyn is dif- 
ferent, maybe both the model and the lOS, the operating system 
is different, but for this — I can tell you, and, again, people know 
the sound of my voice — if you’ve got an idea, let us know, but 5C 
lOS 9, we do not have that capability 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. Okay. 

Mr. CoMEY [continuing]. Again, to disable. The problem is we can 
get into that phone with our computing power if they take off the 
auto-erase and the delay-between-guesses function. We will get into 
that phone. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. So do you agree. Director Comey, that if there is 
authority to be given to do what you’re asking, that that authority 
has to come from Congress? 

Mr. Comey. No, I don’t agree with that. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. So where do you think the authority comes from? 


Mr. CoMEY. Well, the government’s already asked the court and 
made the argument under the court that the All Writs Act vests 
in the judiciary the ability to order this relief. That’s what the 
court case is going to be about. 

Mr. CiCiLLlNE. So if the ruling made yesterday remains, which 
rejects the notion that the All Writs Act applies and that CALEA, 
in fact, is congressional intention on this, and the fact that we 
didn’t act on it means you have authorization has not been pro- 
vided, then would you agree that Congress is the only place that 
can authorize this, and if so, what would you recommend we do? 
What would that look like as we grapple with this question? Be- 
cause I can tell you, for me, having read that, I think CALEA is 
clear; it doesn’t authorize it. It’s clear the All Writs Act doesn’t. So 
if there is to be authority, assuming we decide that there should 
be, it seems it must come from Congress. As the Director of the 
EBI, what do you think that would — what would your recommenda- 
tion be that would respond to what you see as your needs but also 
the national security interests of our country? 

Mr. CoMEY. Yeah. I’m not prepared to make a recommendation, 
but I think I get your question now. If the judges are right you that 
can’t use the All Writs Act for this relief, what should Congress do 
to grant the relief? And I’m not prepared to tell you specifically 
what to do. I do think it’s something that Congress is going to have 
to wrestle with. 

Mr. CiCiLLlNE. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chair- 

Thank you. Director. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair would ask unanimous consent that 
letters from the Computer Communications Industry Association, 
dated Eebruary 29; a statement for the record from Reynaldo 
Tariche, President of the EBI Agents Association; and a letter, 
dated Eebruary 29, from the American Civil Liberties Union all be 
made a part of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


Computer & Communications 
Industry Association 
Tech Advocacy Since 1972 

Febmary 29, 2016 

The Honorable Bob Goodlaiie The Honorable John Conyers 

Chairman, Judiciary Committee Ranking Member, Judiciary Committee 

United States House of Representatives United States House of Representatives 

Dear Chairman Goodlatie and Ranking Member Conyers; 

The technology industry consistently cooperates with law enforcement in its important work to 
deter and investigate crimes and terrorism. Companies large and small comply with lawful and 
appropriately scoped legal orders, and devote significant resources to responsibly aiding 
government efforts to combat extremist and exploitative content. 

The ongoing debate about the availability and use of encry ption and other security technologies 
in digital devices and services often focuses on a narrowly defined trade-off between users’ 
privacy and our collective security. That framing underrepresents other vital and legitimate 
equities at stake. 

Our system of limited government is predicated on the principle that ends do not justify all 
means While the government’s goal is to obtain possibly important investigative information, it 
seeks to do so through methods that will undermine other goals that both the government and the 
public often consider to be of equal or greater importance, including personal safety, security, 
and freedom online 

The public has chosen to keep significant portions of their personal and financial lives in digital 
services and devices. But users worldwide also see the growing dangers of criminals, hackers, 
terrorists, and oppressive or intrusive regimes. As a result, they have demanded that the 
caretakers of their personal information develop the tools to stay a step ahead of those bad actors. 
Internet users are growing increasingly vigilant, but fundamentally the public must be able to 
trust that companies will do their part to keep sensitive data safe 

That trust, and more importantly, the aggregate personal well-being and security of the public, 
are risked when service providers and device manufacturers can be asked or compelled to 
weaken the digital security technologies that users demand Safety, expression, and commerce 
online are all threatened by creating vulnerabilities desired by the same bad actors from whom 
the government seeks to protect us. 

I recognize the government’s desire to test the limits of the law in its efforts to prevent and 
investigate serious crimes. However, a fulsome consideration of the public interest makes clear 

900 17”’StreetNW Suite 1100 Washington. DC 20006 P: (202) 783-0070 F: (202) 783-0534 


Computer & Communications 
Industry Association 
Tech Advocacy Since 1972 

that the government’s efforts should not come at the expense of the rights and overall security of 
the public and digital ecosystem 

Thank you for your attention. 


Ed Black 
President & CEO 

Computer & Communications Industry Association 

Cc: House Judiciary Committee 

900 I?'" Street NW Suite 1100 Washington. DC 20006 P: (202) 783-0070 F: (202) 783-0S34 


Statement for the Record 
Reynaldo Tariche 

FBI Agents Association 

The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy 
United States House of Representatives 
Committee on the Judiciary 

March 1,2016 

Fourteen innocent people were killed in San Bernardino on December 2, 2015 in the nation’s 
deadliest terrorist attack since 9/11. Evidence relating to that crime might exist on the iPhone 
used by the terrorist Syed Rizwan Farook. FBI Agents — thousands of whom 1 am honored to 
represent — are investigating this crime and others like it In this case, Apple has refused to 
abide by a federal court order requiring the company to assist the FBI with accessing the data 
on Farook’s iPhone pursuant to a warrant. Apple’s decision reflects a blatant disregard for 
the work of FBI Agents and constitutes a threat to national security. 

First, Apple has failed to acknowledge that their customers are also our customers. It is our 
sworn duty to keep our customers, the American people, safe. Our duty is undertaken while 
adhering to Constitutional provisions barring unreasonable searches and seizures, protecting 
privacy. Apple’s job is undertaken while adhering to an economic principle: a return on 
investment. While profits may dictate Apple’s decisions, the Constitution dictates ours. 

Second, Apple’s actions now will embolden criminals, providing a safe haven for their 
activities. This includes the cyber-criminals. It would be unwise to disregard established 
search and seizure procedures to give Apple products special treatment. Terrorists, child 
pornographers, and others criminals should not escape lawful warrants because corporations 
use the promise of secure communications as a marketing tool. 

Third, while Apple now claims openness to public dialogue about the company’s technology, 
their actions belie their words. In November 20 1 5, the FBI Agents Association, the Attorney 
General of Ohio, the National District Attorneys Association, and the National Sheriffs’ 
Association jointly wrote to Apple to engage in the discussion you now seek. However, 
Apple did not bother to respond to that request. Rather, Apple and other technology 
companies have spent millions on lobbying and public relations, and have attempted to 
leverage the industry’s significant influence to derail Congressional debate 


Page 2 

Fourth, if Apple is unwilling to act, then we urge Congress to do so. There are ways to 
resolve this problem, and the solution is not based on the false choice between absolutely 
secure communications and a wide-open door. Apple has worked with law enforcement to 
extract data from iPhones scores of times previously, and we urge the company to do so 
again Absent this. Congress should enact legislation requiring companies to incorporate 
options into their technology that prevent smartphones from serving as barriers to lawfully- 
issued search warrants. Given existing technologies, this is a reasonable and practical 

Finally, the ability to lawfully obtain the private records of criminal conspiracies is a time- 
tested and indispensable part of effective law enforcement The papers and letters of the past 
are being replaced by the electronic data held on Apple devices. Apple is choosing to 
provide modem criminals with a tool that past generations of criminals never had: an 
impenetrable door that is booby-trapped to destroy evidence. A homeowner could not reject 
law enforcement officers executing a warrant by claiming they don’t want to unlock the door 
Likewise, Apple should not be able to stonewall the FBI and the courts simply because the 
company has decided not to unlock its iPhones 

We applaud Apple’s innovative spirit and customer dedication. Please bear in mind that their 
customers are also our customers — customers who FBI Agents are sworn to protect from 
criminals and terrorists. Our customers deserve a means of ensuring that the drive for profits 
does not come at the cost of public safety. 

The FK! AgeMs Association (FHIAA) is an organization dedicated to providing siip/>ort 
and adviK'acy to active and former S/Kcial Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 
Membership includes more than 13,000 active and former S/>ecial Agents of the FBI. For 
more information, please visit \vww,fbiaa,orv . Contact: Paid Nalhanson, 202-H2S-I7I-I, 
media a l•BIAA,orv , 





Fcbman- 29, 2016 

The Honorable Bob Goodlattc 
Chairman. House Judiciars Committee 
2138 Rayburn House Office Bldg. 
Washington. D C. 20515 


91S l»th STREET. NM. 
P/202. S4C. 0121 

The Honorable John Conyers. Jr. 

Ranking Member, House Judiciars' Committee 
2138 Rayburn House Office Bldg. 

Washington. D C. 20515 

RE: House Judiciary Committee Hearing on “The Encryption Tightrope: 
Balancing Americans* Security and Privacy.** 

Dear Chairman Goodlattc. Ranking Member Conyers, and Members of the 





NEW rORK. NY 100' 4• 

T/ 212 . S49 . 



exccvTivg piMccrop 


On behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union ("ACLU”'). we submit this letter 
in connection with the March 1. 2016 hearing. “The Enciyption Tightrope: 
Balancing Americans' Sccurit>' and Priv^y.” 

Over the last decade, the technology industry has made significant progress in 
protecting the sccurit> of Americans' private data, including electronic 
communications, through enhanced sccuriK features and encry ption technologies. 
This increased securit> has not only paved the way for adxanced technological and 
economic development, but has been critical to ensuring fiec expression and an 
open InteiTKt. UnfortuntUely. there have been calls by some to undermine- rather 
than support- these security advances. Specifically, the FBI is currently seeking to 
compel Apple to develop new software that would allow the FBI to hack into the 
w ork phone of one of the San Bernardino shooters ^ One magistrate judge in New 
York has already ruled that such a request is not authorized by the law. noting that 
Congress has explicitly declined to provide this authority.^ Another case on this 
issue is pending. 

' For nearly a century the ACLU lias been our nation’s guardian of liberty, w orking in courts. IcgisLitures. 
and coinmunilics to defend and prcscr\’c tire individual rights and liberties dial die Conslituiion and the 
laws guarantee every one in this country . The ACLU takes up the toughest civil liberties eases and issues to 
defend all people from government .-^usc and overreach. With more limn a million members, activists, and 
supporters, the ACLU is a nalionw idc organt/alion that fi^s tirelessly in all 50 stales. Puerto Rico, and 
Washington. D C., for the principle that c\'cty individual 's rights must be protected equally under tiic law . 
regardless of race, religioa gender, sexual orientation, disability, or national origin. 

* In the Matter of the Search of an Apple iPhone Seized During the Execution of a Search Warrant on a 
Black Lexus iS300. California License Plate 35KGD203. No. 15-04i5M (C.D. Cal. Feb. 16. 2016). 

^ Dc\ lin Barrett. Judge Sides ll'ilh Apple in Drug Case Involving iMcked Phone. W.S.J. Feb. 29. 2016. 

Iutp //www usl coin/;ifiiclcs/iudgc-sidcs-with-applc-in-drug-casc-imolvinp-k>ckcd-phonc-14567H59IO : 
Memorandum and Order. In Re Order Requiring Apple. Inc. to Assist in the Execution of a Search Warrant 
Issued by diis Court. 2015 WL 5920207 (E D.N.Y 2016). mailable ai 
Imp //WWW politico coiii/fAMd=0<K)0() 1 5.t.2f2b-d640-a7n>-7fbb7238<KK) I . 


The ACLII opposes the FBI efforts in the Apple case. They are unauthorized, 
unconstitutional, and unwise. VVe urge the Committee to reject any proposal that would 
grant the FBI the authority to conscript technology suppliers into hacking or building a 
backdoor into the devices of users. 

I. Advancements in Encryption and Other Security Features 

In recent years. Apple has added security features and enhanced encry ption on its mobile devices. 
- responding to increased consumer demands for greater privacy and security. These features are 
designed to protect consumers from criminals, hackers, or even malicious foreign governments. 
The more recent versions of the Apple iOS operating system: 

• Allow consumers to turn on a feature that makes the contents of the phone inaccessible in 
the event that a PIN code is incorrectly entered ten times: 

• By default, create a time lag between incorrect PIN entries, to prevent a malicious actor 
from bombarding the phone with numerous PIN attempts in a row: 

• Require the user's PIN to unlock and decrypt the data stored on the phone In other 
words, w ithout a user's PIN. no one. including Apple, can unlock an iPlione: and 

• Expand the categories of data protected by industry -standard encry ption to include 
photos, text messages, the address book, and several other forms of previously less- 
protected private data.** 

Many of these changes mirror the industry trend of providing consumers enhanced security 
through encryption. Last September Google announced it would turn on disk encry ption by 
default in the next version of its Android operating $y stem, though this currently remains an opt- 
in feature due to reduction in speed suffered by many Android devices when encry ption is used.’ 
In addition, encryption is being adopted to protect data as it is transmitted over the Internet. 
Major companies like Google. Facebook. and Twitter all use HTTPS and other transport 
encryption technologies to ensure that communication bc^vccn their customers and their own 
servers arc secure. The federal government has followed tlie technology industry s lead, and 
announced that all U.S. government websites will use HTTPS encryption within two years. ^ 
Similarly. 76 members of Congress use HTTPS encryption by default on their official websites.’ 

* Apple luid for several years included such strong cnciy ption tcclinolog.v in its mobile operating s> stem: 
how cN'cr. prior to last year, this method of encry ption onlv protected a few categories of data stored on 
dev ices, such as email messages and data created by tliird parly apps. Cyrus Fariv ar. Apple Exparuls Data 
Encryption I'nder iOSH. Making Handover to Cops Moot, Ars T>:CHN'ICA (Sept. 18. 2014). 

4/09/1 7/ai 

cops-moot/ . 

~ Andrew Cunningham. Google Quietly Backs Away from Encrypting Aew' hdlipop Devices by Default, 
ARS Technica (Mar. 2. 20 1 5). http://atstccl»)ica.contoificts/2»J.^/m2/fiOQftlc-Quictlvj)acks-aHay- 
f rom-enerv pting-new -IqIIidopkIcv ices-bv •default/ . 

*'See The HTTPS-Only Standard. CHIEF lNFOR.M,ATlON OFFICER. hltPs:// (last visited Apr. 29. 
2015) ("The American people expect government websites to be secure and their interactions w ith those 
websites to be private. Hypene.M Transfer Protocol Secure (HTTPS) offers the strongest privacy protection 
av ailable for public web connections w ith today *s internet teclmologv . Ttie use of HTTPS reduces the risk 
of interception or modification of user intcractioits with govcmmcni online sen ices."). 

Eric Mill('rrkonklonc). TWTrrER(Apr. 18. 2015. 4; 18PM). 
htlps://lw liter CO m/konklonc/sLitus/589.S .^84 .^4.^52097282 . 


The adoption of these encrvption technologies has yielded significant benefits to consumers, 
businesses, and government agencies, providing greater protection from the ever-increasing threat 
posed by cyber criminals and foreign governments. 

II. The Apple Case 

Currently, the FBI seeks to create legal precedent that would enable it to force private companies 
to develop sofbvarc to hack into its customers' devices and access encry pted data. In tlie case at 
hand, the FBI argues that the 1789 All Writs Act grants it the authority to compel Apple to create 
a mechanism that allows the FBI to circumvent the existing securitv' featuies in tlie iPhone to 
access to contents of the recovered phone. As a practical matter, to comply with this order, Apple 
will need to do three things; 

• Create new software designed to circumvent sccuritv' features, which create a time lag 
between incorrect PIN attempts or m^c the contents of the phone inaccessible following 
ten incorrect PIN entries; 

• Crvptographicallv "sign'’ the software, which indicates that the software has been 
developed and validated by Apple. Such a signature is ncccssaiy to push the new 
software onto the target phone, since, as an added sccuritv feature. iPhones will not run 
software that has not been validated by Apple and 

• Take steps to transmit the newly developed softwaa* onto tlie target phone. 

If the FBI is successful, the legal precedent established by this case would tM^ply to all companies, 
devices, or eriminal investigations. Thus, it could be used to compel other companies to build 
mechanisms to hack into smart televisions, computers, or even medical devices. For example, 
law enforcement could require a company to remotely turn on a camera in a smart television to 
assist with a drug investigation, or require a car company to deliver malicious software to a car's 
GPS system to allow tracking as part of a tax evasion investigation. 

III. The FBI Efforts to Compel Apple Would Place an Unconstitutional Burden on 
Private Companies 

If successful, the FBI's efforts in this case would mpresent an unauthorized and unconstitutional 
expansion of the government's authority. While the government can demand the production of 
relevant evidence, the giving of truthful testimony, or the entry necessary to search for and seize 
cv idence. law enforcement docs not hold the general power to enlist private citizens or companies 
as its agents. 

In this case. Apple manufactured the iPhone, but it docs not possess or control the personal data 
stored on it or even have existing software or capabilities capable of accessing such data Thus, 
in order to compiv with the request. Apple's engineers would have to write new software 
specifically designed to subvert the security measures they built into the phone. Forcing Apple to 
t^c such action would violate the Fifth Amendment. The Fifth Amendment protects innocent 
third parties from being conscripted by law enforcement, except in narrow circumstances. The 
present case clearly extends beyond these limits, and raises troubling questions about the 
authority of law enforcement officials. 

Proposals like the FBI's arc also a dramatic expansion of a dangerous idea- that tlie private sector 
should be responsible for building the government's surveillance infrastructure. Such proposals 


switch the burden for surveillance from the government to companies (and through them to their 
customers, the American people). Consumers would be forced to purchase fundamentally 
insecure products, with little ability to protect their communications and stored data from 
cybcrsccurity threats. Not only docs this represent an improper government intrusion, but it 
threatens to eliminate one of the primary privacy protections that Americans ha\e enjoyed for the 
last two centuries — namely , the sheer difficulty of mass surveillance. As a practical matter, the 
cost to law enforcement of surveillance has prov ided real privacy protection by forcing law 
enforcement to determine whether inv estigations merit the use of scarce resources. Shifting the 
costs and burdens of surveillance onto the private sector weakens this critical protection. 

IV. The FBI Efforts to Compel Apple Threaten Free Expression and Human Rights 

The FBI's actions in this case also pose a threat to free expmssion and global human rights. The 
legal precedent the FBI seeks to establish in this case would ensure that the government is able to 
demand access to virtually any electronic communication or piece of data, regardless of the 
device or software that an individual uses. Opening all eleetronic communication to tlie 
possibility of government scrutiny, or making such communication more easily subject to priv ate 
hacking, could have a chilling effect on free speech, dissuading the public, journalists, or activists 
from engaging in protected speech In the past, vve have seen how the fear of outside scrutiny , 
whether by government or otherwise, has made it more difficult for prominent journalists to 
communicate with sources, leading to self-censoring and hindering reporting on critical issues, 
especially those related to national security where government secrecy and the potential for the 
abuse of civil liberties are at their highest.' 

Indeed. U.S. foreign policy has also long supported efforts to ensure anonymous and secure 
communication, as a way of promoting free expression, human rights, and an open internet 
around the world. As part of this policy, the U.S. government has supported projects that provide 
secure communications to journalists and human rights activists who are often targeted by 
repressive regimes.^ For example, the U.S. government has helped to create tools that provide 
end-to-end encryption, which provide greater security to users.'® The FBI's attempts in this case 
are contrary to this policy, and open the door to repressive regimes demanding that American 
companies take the same burdensome actions to provide access to their citizens' devices in order 

* Chilling Effects: A'X-1 Surveillance Drives V.S, Writers to Self-Censor, PEN AMKRIC.v (Nov. 12. 2013). 
htlp:/A\vvw .pcn.ofy/silcs/dcfault/rilcs^Chillin^^OEffccis PEN%20Aiiicncait pdf : ACLU A Human 
Rights Waich. With Liberty to Monitor All: How Ijirge-Scale CS Surveillance Is Harming Journalism, 
Law. am! American Democracy 22-48 (2014). hups://\\vvvv 
wilhlibcflvtomonilofall4l7282014 pdf : Jesse Holcomb & Amy Mitchell. Investigaihe Journalists ami 
Digital Security: Perceptions of I'ulnerahility ami Changes in Behavior, Phw Rksh-vRCH Ctr. (Feb. 5. 

20 1 5). http://\vwvv joumalism-org/20l5A>2A)5/invcstigativc-joumalisls-and-digilal -security/ . 

^See. c.g. About the Program, Opun TTcH. FfM). htlpsi/ (noting creation of 
the Open Technology Fund (“OTF’) with U.S. gov cmnKnt funding and OTF's goal of securing access to 
llic Internet with "cnciy ption tools"). 

Whats App is adopting cncry ption mechanisms developed by Open Whisper Systems, w hich is funded by 
tlic Open Technology Fund. Sec Projects. OPE-ViTECH. ^'NIX httpsyAvvv 
Open Whisper Systems Partners with WhaLs.\pp to Provide End-to-End Encryption. OPEN WtlLSPKR 
SYSTFAts Bixxi (Nov. 18. 2014). httDs://vvhispcrsvstcms.ora/bloa/vvhatsaPD/ : see also White House. 
National Security Strategy 21 (Feb. 2015). 

http //WWW whitclio use tfov /siics/dcfault/filc&/docV20l.^ imtiotml security si niicev 2.pdf ('Tlic United 
Slates is countering this trend by providing direct sigipon for civil society aiKl by advocating rollback of 
laws and regulations tliat undennine citizens' rights. We arc also supporting iccluiologies tliat expaiKl 
access to infonnaiion. enable freedom of expression, and connect civil society groups in lliis Hglil around 
tlic world "). 


10 target dissenters, suppress free expression, or commit other human rights violations 

V. The FBI Efforts to Compel Apple Would Harm Cybersecurity 

The FBI 's efforts to compel Apple to undemiinc the sccuritv of its product will erode consumer 
confidence and put customers at risk. Forcing Apple to use its software update capability to 
undermine the sccurit> of one of its devices will make consumers wary of software updates, 
resulting in decreased c\ bcrsecurit\ . In mcent years, there have been enormous strides in pushing 
software updates to consumers. In many cases, these updates help to patch or repair 
vulnend)ilities in consumers' devices that leave them vulnerable to hackers. Tire viabilitv of this 
software update apparatus depends, in part, on consumers having confidence that these updates 
arc genuine, and not malicious code in disguise. Should consumers fear that these arc not 
legitimate updates verified by companies, they mav simply stop downloading them. In an age 
w hen data breaches and identitv theft are increasingly common, such a shift in consumer behavior 
would have disastrous results forcybersccurity. 

Moreover, simply by creating this software. Apple is putting its customers at risk Should anyone 
be able to replicate or steal such software, it could leave all iPhones v ulnerable. Such a risk is not 
theoretical - prominent technology companies arc routine!) targeted by malicious actors. In 
2009. Google and Microsoft's law enforcement surveillance teams were compromised by Chinese 
hackers who gained access to a sensitive database w ith years' worth of information about the U S. 
government's surveillance targets '* In 2014. Microsoft's surveillance team was compromised 
again, this time by the Syrian Electronic Army.’* In 2012, a backdoor that was inserted into 
JuniperOS software in 2008 was compromised, opening customers' network traffic to an 
unknown adversarv This is, in part, why Apple's recent move toward strong device enciy ption 
is so critical - it ensures that consumers' information is secure even if Apple's own security 
systems are compromised. 

At a time when cvbcrsccuritv' threats are at the top of our national sccuritv agenda, the 
government should be encouraging companies to enhance sccuritv. not calling on companies to 
take actions that undermine the sccuritv- and privacy of their users. Thus, we urge the committee 
to press the FBI to abandon these misguided efforts and instead invest in policies that encourage 
the adoption of strong encry ption and other digital security technologies. 

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact Legislative Counsel Neema Singh Gulioni at 
202-675-2322 or nguliani V/ . 


” Ellen Nakashinta. Chinese Hackers W ho breached Google Gained Access to Sensitive Data. V.S. 
Officials Say. W/\Stt. POST. May 20. 2013. Iwtp /AwNW .washingtonpost.conVworld/national- 
s^\/201.tA).V20/5I.T^(U2H-bc34-llc2-89c9-3bc8<W5fc767 storv hlml . 

**Tom Warren. SUcrosoft Confirms Syrian Electronic Army Hacked mto Employee tjnad Accounts.TWV. 
Verge. Jan. 15. 2014 liltp://wvN vv.thc\crgc.conV2() 14/1/15/53 1 279X/niicroson-cmailnaccoums-liackcd- 
svrian-clcctfonic-anm . 

*3 Dr. Matthew D. Green. Assistant Professor, Dept of Computer Science. Johns Hopkins Univ.. 

Keynote Address: “On Subverting Trust," at the Network and Distributed System Security Symposium 
(Feb. 22. 2016). 


Karin Johanson 

Director. Washington Legislative Office 

Neema Singh Guliani 
Legislative Counsel 


Mr. Goodlatte. Director Comey, you’ve given us 3 hour — oh, I’m 
sorry. I’m jumping the gun here. 

The gentleman from California, Mr. Peters, is recognized for 5 

Mr. Peters. Director Comey — I want to, first of all, thank you, 
Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for being here. I wanted to just 
conclude by saying that I did hear very — did listen carefully to your 
opening statement. I thought it was very constructive. I think you 
appreciate the two objectives we have here, which is to both pre- 
serve privacy and to deal with San Bernardino. You’ve heard the 
comment: hard cases make bad law. They’re still hard cases, and 
the problem we see in terrorism now is the onesies and the twosies. 
And the notion that we would have invulnerable communications, 
I think, is something that we should all be concerned about. 

I hope that you and the panel to follow you will all be part of 
a constructive discussion to figure out a way to serve both objec- 
tives and that the lines won’t be too hard drawn on either side so 
we can do that. 

And I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the chance to thank Director 
Comey for being here, and look forward to the next panel. 

Mr. Comey. Thank you. 

Mr. Peters. Yield back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman. 

Director, you’ve donated 3 hours of your time to our efforts today, 
or more. I’m sure, in getting ready, so we thank you very much for 
your participation and for answering a multitude of questions. And 
we are looking for answers, so if you have more to add to the 
record later, we would welcome that as well. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Comey. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. ISSA. Mr. Chairman, would you entertain a unanimous con- 
sent while we’re changing panels? 

Mr. Goodlatte. I would. 

Mr. IssA. Then I would ask unanimous consent that a letter I re- 
ceived late yesterday from a constituent in the technology business 
concerning this case be placed in the record. This is Emily Hirsch. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection, that will be made a part of 
the record.* 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. We ask the witnesses on the second panel to 
please come forward and be seated. 

And now that Mr. Sewell has been afforded similar attention to 
the attention previously accorded to Director Comey, I’d ask that 
the press move back so we can begin the second panel. 

Ms. Lofgren. Mr. Chairman, I would not assume it was not di- 
rected to Ms. Landau, this photography. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you. 

We welcome our distinguished witnesses for today’s second panel. 
And if you would all please rise. I’ll begin by swearing you in. 

Do you and each of you swear that the testimony that you are 
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God? 

*Note: The material referred to was not available at the time this hearing record was final- 
ized and submitted for printing on August 5, 2016. 


Thank you very much. Let the record reflect that all of the wit- 
nesses responded in the affirmative. And I will now introduce the 

Bruce Sewell is senior vice president and general counsel of 
Apple. Mr. Sewell serves on Apple’s legal team and oversees all 
legal matters, including global security and privacy. Prior to joining 
Apple, Mr. Sewell was deputy general counsel and vice president 
of Intel Corporation. He received his bachelor’s degree from the 
University of Lancaster, and a J.D. From George Washington Uni- 

Dr. Susan Landau is professor of cybersecurity policy at Worces- 
ter Polytechnic Institute. Originally trained as a theoretical com- 
puter scientist. Dr. Landau is an expert in cryptographic applica- 
tions. Within cybersecurity policy, her work focuses specifically on 
communications surveillance issues. Dr. Landau earned a bach- 
elor’s degree from Princeton University, a master’s from Cornell 
University, and a Ph.D. From the Massachusetts Institute of Tech- 

Our final witness, Mr. Cyrus Vance, Jr., is the district attorney 
of New York County. Mr. Vance is currently serving his second 
term as district attorney after being reelected in 2013. He also 
serves as co-chair of the New York State Permanent Commission 
on Sentencing. Previously, Mr. Vance worked in private practice 
and taught at Seattle University School of Law. He’s a graduate of 
Yale University and the Georgetown University Law Center. 

All of your written statements will be entered into the record in 
their entirety. And we ask that each of you summarize your testi- 
mony in 5 minutes or less. To help you stay within that time, 
there’s a timing light on the table. When the light switches from 
green to yellow, you have 1 minute to conclude your testimony. 
When the light turns red, that’s it; your time is up. 

And we’ll begin with you, Mr. Sewell. Welcome. 


Mr. Sewell. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you 
Members of the Committee and Ranking Member. 

Mr. CooDLATTE. Make sure that microphone is on and pulled 

Mr. Sewell. Thank you for that technology hint. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It’s my pleasure to appear before you 
and the Committee today on behalf of Apple. We appreciate your 
invitation and the opportunity to be part of the discussion of this 
important issue, which centers on the civil liberties that are at the 
foundation of our country. 

I want to repeat something that we’ve said since the beginning, 
that the victims and the families of the San Bernardino attacks 
have our deepest sympathies. We strongly agree that justice should 
be served. And Apple has no sympathy for terrorists. 

We have the utmost respect for law enforcement and share their 
goal of creating a safer world. We have a team of dedicated profes- 
sionals that are on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days 
a year, to assist law enforcement. 


When the FBI came to us in the immediate aftermath of the San 
Bernardino attacks, we gave them all the information we had re- 
lated to their investigation. And we went beyond that by making 
Apple engineers available to advise the FBI on a number of inves- 
tigative alternatives, but now we find ourselves at the center of a 
very extraordinary circumstance. 

The FBI has asked the court to order us to give them something 
that we don’t have, to create an operating system that does not 
exist. The reason it doesn’t exist is because it would be too dan- 
gerous. They are asking for a backdoor into the iPhone: specifically, 
to build a software tool that can break the encryption system which 
protects personal information on every iPhone. 

As we have told them and as we have told the American public, 
building that software tool would not affect just one iPhone. It 
would weaken the security for all of them. In fact, just last week. 
Director Comey agreed, and I think we heard the same here today, 
that the FBI would likely use this as precedent for other cases in- 
volving other phones. We’ve heard from District Attorney Vance, 
who’s also said that he absolutely plans to use this tool on over 175 
phones that he has in his possession. We can all agree this is not 
about access to one iPhone. 

The FBI is asking Apple to weaken the security of our products. 
Hackers and cybercriminals could use this to wreak havoc on our 
privacy and personal safety. It would set a dangerous precedent for 
government intrusion into the privacy and safety of its citizens. 

Hundreds of millions of law-abiding citizens trust Apple’s prod- 
ucts with the most intimate details of their daily lives: photos, pri- 
vate conversations, health data, financial accounts, and information 
about a user’s location, and the location of that user’s family and 

Some of you may have an iPhone in your pocket right now. And 
if you think about it, there’s probably more information stored on 
that device than a thief could steal by breaking into your house. 
The only way we know to protect that data is through strong 

Every day, over a trillion transactions occur safely over the Inter- 
net as the result of encrypted communications. These range from 
online banking and credit card transactions to the exchange of 
healthcare records, ideas that will change the world for the better, 
and communications between loved ones. 

The U.S. Government has spent tens of millions of dollars 
through the Open Technology Fund and other U.S. Government 
programs to fund strong encryption. The Review Group on Intel- 
ligence and Communications Technology, convened by President 
Obama, urged the U.S. Government to fully support and not in any 
way subvert, weaken, or make vulnerable generally available com- 
mercial software. 

Encryption is a good thing. We need it to keep people safe. We 
have been using it in our products for over a decade. As attacks 
on our customers’ data become more sophisticated, the tools we 
need to use to defend against them need to get stronger too. Weak- 
ening encryption would only hurt consumers and well-meaning 
users who rely on companies like Apple to protect their personal 


Today’s hearing is entitled “Balancing America’s Security and 
Privacy.” We believe we can and we must have both. Protecting our 
data with encryption and other methods preserves our privacy and 
keeps people safe. 

The American people deserve an honest conversation around the 
important questions stemming from the FBI’s current demand. Do 
we want to put a limit on the technology that protects our data 
and, therefore, our privacy and safety in the face of increasingly so- 
phisticated cyber attacks? Should the FBI be allowed to stop Apple 
or any company from offering the American people the safest and 
most secure products it can make? Should the FBI have the right 
to compel a company to produce a product it doesn’t already make 
to the FBI’s exact specifications and for the FBI’s use? 

We believe that each of these questions deserves a healthy dis- 
cussion, and any decision should only be made after a thoughtful 
and honest consideration of the facts. Most importantly, the deci- 
sion should be made by you and your colleagues as Representatives 
of the people rather than through warrant requests based on a 220- 
year-old statute. As Judge Orenstein concluded yesterday, granting 
the FBI’s request would thoroughly undermine fundamental prin- 
ciples of the Constitution. 

At Apple, we are ready to have this conversation. The feedback 
and support we’re hearing indicate to us that the American people 
are too. We feel strongly that our customers, their families, their 
friends, and their neighbors will be better protected from thieves 
and terrorists if we can offer the best protections for their data; at 
the same time, our freedoms and liberties we all cherish will be 
more secure. 

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Sewell follows:] 


statement for the Record 

“The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Secnrity and Privacy” 
United States House of Representatives 
Committee on the Judiciary 

Bruce Sewell 

Senior Vice President and General Counsel 

March 1, 2016 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's my pleasure to appear before you and the 
Committee today on behalf of Apple. We appreciate your invitation and the opportunity 
to be part of the discussion on this important issue which centers on the civil liberties at 
the foundation of our country. 

I want to repeat something we have .said since the beginning — that the victims and 
families of the San Bernardino attacks have our deepest sympathies and we strongly agree that 
justice should be served. Apple has no sympathy for terrorists. 

We have the utmost respect for law enforcement and share their goal of creating a 
safer world. We have a team of dedicated professionals that are on call 24 hours a day, 
seven days a week, 36.‘5 days a year to assist law enforcement. When the FBI came to us 
in the immediate aftermath of the San Bernardino attacks, we gave all the information we 
had related to their investigation. And we went beyond that by making Apple engineers 
available to advise them on a number of additional investigative options. 

But we now find ourselves at the center of an extraordinary circumstance. The 
FBI has asked a Court to order us to give them something we don’t have. To create an 
operating system that does not exist — because it would be too dangerous. They are 
asking for a backdoor into the iPhone — specifically to build a software tool that can 
break the encryption system which protects personal information on every iPhone. 

As we have told them — and as we have told the American public — building 
that software tool would not affect just one iPhone. It would weaken the security for all of 
them. In fact, just last week Director Comey agreed that the FBI would likely use this 
precedent in other cases involving other phones. District Attorney Vance has also said he 

Page 1 of 3 


would absolutely plan to use this on over 175 phones. We can all agree this is not about 
access to just one iPhone. 

The FBI is asking Apple to weaken the security of our products. Hackers and 
cyber criminals could use this to wreak havoc on our privacy and personal safety. It 
would set a dangerous precedent for government intrusion on the privacy and safety of its 

Hundreds of millions of law-abiding people trust Apple’s products with the most intimate 
details of their daily lives - photos, private conversations, health data, financial accounts, and 
information about the user's location as w'ell as the location of their friends and families. Some of 
you might have an iPhone in your pocket right now, and if you think about it, there's probably 
more information stored on that iPhone than a thief could steal by breaking into your house. The 
only way we know' to protect tliat data is through strong encryption. 

Every day, over a trillion transactions occur safely over the Internet as a result of 
encrypted communications. These range from online banking and credit card transactions to the 
exchange of healthcare records, ideas that will change the world for the better, and 
communications between loved ones. The US government has spent tens of millions of dollars 
through the Open Technology fund and other US government programs to fund strong 
encryption. The Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technology, convened by 
President Obama, urged the US government to fully support and not in any way subvert, 
undermine, weaken, or make vulnerable generally available commercial software. 

Encryption is a good thing, a necessary thing. We have been using it in our products for 
over a decade. As attacks on our customers’ data become increasingly sophisticated, the tools we 
use to defend against them must get stronger too. Weakening enciyption will only hurt 
consumers and other well-meaning users who rely on companies like Apple to protect their 
personal information. 

Today’s hearing is titled Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy, We believe we can, 
and we must, have both. Protecting our data with enciyption and other methods preserves our 
privacy and it keeps people safe. 

The American people deserve an honest conversation around the important questions 
stemming from the FBI’s current demand: 

Do we want to put a limit on the technology that protects our data, and therefore 
our privacy and our safety, in the face of increasingly sophisticated cyber attacks? Should 
the FBI be allowed to stop Apple, or any company, from offering the American people the 
safest and most secure product it can make? 

Should the FBI have the right to compel a company to produce a product it 
doesn't already make, to the FBI’s exact specifications and for the FBI’s use? 

Page 2 of 3 


We believe that each of these questions deserves a healthy discussion, and any 
decision should be made after a thoughtful and honest consideration of the facts. 

Most importantly, the decisions should be made by you and your colleagues as 
representatives of the people, rather than through a warrant request based on a 220 year- 

At Apple, we are ready to have this conversation. The feedback and support we're 
hearing indicate to us that the American people are ready, too. 

We feel strongly that our customers, their families, their friends and their 
neighbors will be better protected from thieves and terrorists if we can offer the very best 
protections for their data. And at the same time, the freedoms and liberties we all cherish 
will be more secure. 

Thank you for your time. 1 look forward to answering your questions. 

Page 3 of 3 


Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Sewell. 

Ms. Landau, welcome. 


Ms. Landau. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and Members of the 
Committee, thank you very much for the opportunity to testify 

The FBI has pitched this battle as one of security versus privacy, 
but as a number of the Members have already observed, it’s really 
about security versus security. We have a national security threat 
going on, and we haven’t solved the problem at all. What have 
smartphones got to do with it? Absolutely everything. Smartphones 
hold our photos and music, our notes and calendars, much of that 
information sensitive, especially the photos. 

Smartphones are increasingly wallets, and they give us access to 
all sorts of accounts, bank accounts, Dropbox, and so on. Many peo- 
ple store proprietary business information on their smartphones — 
their personal smartphones — even though they know they 

Now, NSA will tell you that stealing login credentials is the most 
effective way into a system. In fact, Rob Joyce of the Tailored Ac- 
cess Operation said so in a public talk a month ago. 

Here’s where smartphones are extremely important. They are 
poised to become authenticators to a wide variety of systems — serv- 
ices. In fact, they’re already being used that way, including at some 
high-placed government agencies. 

Now, District Attorney Vance will tell you that law — has said 
that large scale data breaches have nothing to do with smartphone 
encryption, but that’s not true. Look at today’s New York Times, 
where there’s a story about the attack on the Ukrainian power 
grid. How did it start? It started by the theft of login credentials 
of system operators. We’ve got to solve the login authentication 
problem, and smartphones are actually our best way forward to do 
it, but not if it’s easy to get into the data of the smartphones. 

Now, the Committee has already observed that there are many 
phones that will go through the process of being unlocked, not just 
the one in San Bernardino. And what that means for Apple is that 
it’s going to have to develop a routine to do so. 

Now, what happens when you have — when you sign a piece of 
code to update a phone and you’re signing a piece of code that’s an 
operating system or firm where you do it once — ^you do it occasion- 
ally. It’s a whole ritual, and there are very senior people involved. 
But if you’re dealing with phones that are daily being updated in 
order to solve law enforcement cases, then what happens is you de- 
velop a routine. You get a Web page, you get a low level employee 
to supervise it, and then it becomes a process that’s easy to sub- 
vert. I have lots of respect for Apple’s security, but not when it be- 
comes a routine process to build an update for a phone. And what 
will happen is organized crime or a nation-state will do so using 
an update to then hack into a phone, maybe the phone of the Sec- 
retary or the chief of the Federal Reserve, maybe a phone of an 
HVAC employee who’s going to go service a powerplant. What 


we’re going to do is decrease our security. That’s the security risk 
that’s coming from the requests. 

Now, I get that law enforcement wants data protection that al- 
lows them access under legal authorization, but an NSA colleague 
once remarked to me that, while his agency had the right to break 
into certain systems, no one ever guaranteed that that right would 
be easy to do so. 

The problem is when you build a way in for someone who isn’t 
the owner to get at the data, well, you’ve built a way in for some- 
body else to get in as well. 

Let me go to CALEA for a moment. GALEA is a security night- 
mare. I know that Congress didn’t intend it that way, but that’s 
what it is. If you ask the signals intelligence people, they will tell 
you: there are many ways for nefarious sorts to take advantage of 
the opening offered by law enforcement. 

Instead of embracing the communications and device security we 
so badly need, law enforcement has been pressing to preserve 20th 
century investigative techniques; meanwhile, our enemies are 
using 21st century technologies against us. 

The EBI needs to take a page from the NSA. You may recall 
that, in the late 1990’s, the NSA was complaining it was going deaf 
from encrypted calls. Well, they’ve obviously improved their tech- 
nology a great deal. According to Mike McConnell, from that time 
until now, NSA has had better SIGINT than any time in history. 

What we need is law enforcement to develop 21st century capa- 
bilities for conducting electronic surveillance. Now, the FBI already 
has some excellent people and expertise, but FBI investment and 
capacity is not at the scale and level necessary. Rather than asking 
industry to weaken protections, law enforcement must instead de- 
velopment the capability for conducting sophisticated investigations 
themselves. Congress can help. The FBI needs an investigative cen- 
ter with agents with deep technical understanding of modern tele- 
communications technology and also, because all phones are com- 
puters, modern computer — deep expertise in computer science. 
There will need to be teams of researchers who understand various 
types of fielded devices. They’ll need to know where technology is 
and where it will be in 6 months and where it will be in 2 to 5 
years, communications technology in 2 to 5 years, so that they can 
develop the surveillance technologies themselves. 

Expertise need not be in-house. The FBI could pursue a solution 
where they develop some of their own expertise and closely man- 
aged contractors to do some of the work, but however the Bureau 
pursues a solution, it must develop modern, state-of-the-art capa- 
bilities. It must do rather than trying to get industry to weaken se- 

Your job is to help the FBI build such capabilities, determine the 
most efficient and effective way that such capabilities could be uti- 
lized by State and local law enforcement, for they don’t have the 
resources to develop that themselves and to also fund that capabili- 
ties. That’s the way forward that does not put our national security 
at risk. It enables law enforcement investigations while encour- 
aging industry to do all it can do to develop better, more effective 
technologies for securing data and devices. That is a win-win and 
where we should be going. Thank you. 


[The prepared statement of Ms. Landau follows:] 

Testimony for 

House Judiciary Committee Hearing on 
"The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy” 

March 1,2016 

Susan Landau, PhD 
Professor of Cybersecurity Policy 
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 
100 Institute Road 
Worcester MA 01609 


Testimony for 

House Judiciary Committee Hearing on 
"The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans' Security and Privacy” 
March 1, 2016 

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: 

Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify today on "The Encryption 
Tightrope: Balancing Americans' Security and Privacy.” My name is Susan Landau, 
and 1 am professor of cybersecurity policy at Worcester Polytechnic Institute. 1 have 
previously been a Senior Staff Privacy Analyst at Google and a Distinguished 
Engineer at Sun Microsystems. 1 am the author of two books on the issues of today's 
hearing: Surveillance or Security? The Risks Posed by New Wiretapping Technologies 
(MIT Press, 2011] and Privacy on the Line: The Politics of Wiretapping and 
Encryption (MIT Press, 1998]; the latter is co-authored with Whitfield Diffie. I have 
written about these issues in the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, Scientific 
American, and other venues. I am a Fellow of the Association for Computing 
Machinery and of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and I 
was recently inducted into the Cybersecurity Hall of Fame,’ 

My comments represent my own views and not those of the institutions with which 
I am affiliated. 

Today I will speak on security threats, encryption, and securing smartphones. 

It would seem to be a fairly straightforward issue: the smartphone of one of the two 
San Bernardino terrorists had its data encrypted. Because Apple designed the phone 
to be secure — and to destroy its data if there were ten incorrect tries of the PIN to 
unlock it — the FBI cannot unlock the smartphone (or at least cannot without risking 
destroying the data]. The court has ordered Apple to create a phone update that 

^ Additional biographical information relevant to the subject matter to the hearing: I am also a 
Visiting Ihofessor of Computer Science at University College London. For over two decades I have 
been studying encryption policy and the risks that occur when wiretapping capabilities are 
embedded in communications infrastructures. At Sun I was involved in issues related to 
cryptography and export control, security and privacy of federated identity management systems, 
and in developing our policy stance in digital rights management. I serve on the National Research 
Council Computer Science and Telecommunications Board, and recently participated in an 
Academies study on Bulk Signals Intelligence Collection: Technical Alternatives [2015]. 1 have served 
on the advisory committee for the National Science Foundation's Directorate for Computer and 
Information Science and Engineering [2009-2012], the Commission on Cyber Security for the 44th 
Presidency [2009-2011], and the National Institute of Standards and Technology's Information 
Security and Privacy Advisory Board [2002-2008]. I hold a PhD in applied math/theoretical 
computer science from MIT. 


will undo this and other security aspects of the software, thus enabling the FBI to 
brute force the key to reveal whatever information is on the phone. 

But little in cyber is straightforward. Despite appearances, this is not a simple story 
of national security versus privacy. It is, in fact, a security versus security story 
although there are, of course, aspects of privacy embedded in it as well. 

The way we use our phones is very different than a decade ago; they are, as the 
Supreme Court observed in Riley v. California/ "minicomputers that also happen to 
have the capacity to be used as a telephone. [The phones] could just as easily be 
called cameras, video players, rolodexes, calendars, tape recorders, libraries, diaries, 
albums, televisions, maps, or newspapers'." Smartphones are already holders of 
account information (financial and otherwise), and are poised to become 
authenticators to a wide variety of services we access via the Internet. 

And that is why we have a security versus security story. The Internet has brought 
huge benefits, but it has also vastly simplified attacks and exploits.^ Cyberespionage 
netted Chinese military a "huge amount of design and electronics data on the F-SS,"'* 
Russian intrusions^ into law firms'' (the target here likely to be patent filings), an 
Iranian hacker probing US critical infrastructure (with possible intent to attack)^ are 
examples. Each day brings more news of such attacks and exploits. 

The cyberexploitation of US companies, in which attackers from overseas have 
reaped vast amounts of intellectual property, threatens the US economic strength. 

In the last decade, the United States has been under an unprecedented attack, one 
that NSA Director Keith Alexander has called "the greatest transfer of wealth in 

2 134 S. Ct 2473 (2014). 

It iriight be hard to understand why a network on which society has become so dependent is so 
insecure. The short answer is history. The ARPANet, the precursor to the Internet, began as a 
research network on which everyone was a trusted partner. When the NSFnet, the follow-on network 
to the ARPANet, was opened up to commercial traffic, it relied on the same protocols. These assumed 
a trusted user body, which was not really sensible for a network that would support financial 
transactions, manage critical infrastructure, and the like. 

David Alexander, "Theft of F-35 design data is helping US adversaries — Pentagon," Reuters, fune 19, 


Director of National Intelligence Janies Clapper views Russia as the top cyher threat. See, e.g., 
Siobhan Gorman, "Intel Chief: Russia Tops China as Cyber Threat," Wall Street journal, October 17, 


'' Mandiant Consulting, "M-Trends 2016: Special Report," p. 4.S, 
DID-242/images/M trends2016.pdf 

^ Stephanie Gosk, Tom Winter, and Tracy Connor, "Iranian Hackers Claim Cyber Attack on US Dam," 
NBC News, December 23, 201S. 

^ Josh Rogin, "NSA Chief: Cybercrime constitutes 'greatest transfer of wealth in history’," The Cable, 
July 9, 2012. 


Stealing your login credentials provides criminals and nation states the most 
effective way into your system — and a smartphone provides one of the best ways of 
securing ourselves. 

That's why Apple's approach to securing phone data is so crucial. 

But law enforcement continues to see electronic surveillance in twentieth century 
terms, and it is using twentieth-century investigative thinking in a twenty-first 
century world. Instead of celebrating steps industry takes to provide security to 
data and communications, the FBI fights it. 

1 should note that this response is different from NSA's, which over the last two 
decades, has, despite public perception, both encouraged and aided industry's 
efforts in securing communications.^ 

Instead of embracing the communications and device security we so badly need for 
securing US public and private data, law enforcement continues to press hard to 
undermine security in the misguided desire to preserve simple, but outdated. 
Investigative techniques. 

There Is another way. Law enforcement should embrace the protections that 
industry is implementing to secure private — and, because of wide adoption, also 
government — sector data and develop substantive advanced capabilities to conduct 
investigations when needed. In the late 1990s, the NSA faced similar challenges and 
overcame them.'“ 

We need twenty-first century technologies to secure the data that twenty-first 
century enemies — organized crime and nation-state attackers — seek to steal and 
exploit. Twentieth century approaches that provide law enforcement with the 
ability to investigate but also simplify exploitations and attacks are not in our 
national-security interest. ” Instead of laws and regulations that weaken our 
protections, we should enable law enforcement to develop twenty-first century 
capabilities for conducting investigations. 

Now I should note that the FBI already has some excellent capabilities in this area. 
But FBI investment and capacity in this area is not at the scale and level necessary to 
be as effective as it needs to be. 

^ This is true despite the fact that the NSA has also sought to undermine some protections: see later 
in this testimony as well as Susan Landau "Under the Radar: NSA's Efforts to Secure Private-Sector 
Telecommunications Infrastructure, "yourna/ of National Security Law and Policy, Vol. 7, No. 3 [2014]. 
See, e.g., Seymour Hersh, "The Intelligence Gap," The New Yorker. December 6, 1999, 

For a humorous take on these issues, see The Strip, New York Times, February 28, 2016, 


That's where Congress can help. Law enforcement must develop the capability for 
conducting such investigations themselves (or through a combination of in house 
and carefully managed contracting). Though there have been nascent steps in this 
direction by law enforcement, a much larger and complete effort is needed. Help the 
FBI build such capabilities, determine the most efficient and effective way that such 
capabilities can be utilized by state and local law enforcement, and fund it. 

This is the way forward that does not put our national security at risk, it enables 
law enforcement investigations while encouraging industry to do all it can to 
develop better, more effective technologies for securing data and devices. This is a 
win/win, and where we should be going. 

The rest of my testimony presents details of these concerns. Thank you very much 
for the opportunity to address you on this critical national-security topic. 

Understanding our Security Threat 

When terrorists wearing tactical gear and black masks and armed with guns and 
bombs attack a concert hall or Christmas party, our immediate emotional reaction is 
that we must move heaven and earth to prevent future such attacks. The role of 
leadership includes making choices. Here we are faced with a situation where logic 
and analysis lead to a different calculus on safety and security than do emotions. So 
while FBI Director James Comey has argued that, "We could not look the survivors 
in the eye if we did not follow this lead,’’'^ this view is a mistaken view of where our 
most serious risks as a nation lie. Page one of the 2016 Department of Defense 
Threat Assessment states; "Devices, designed and fielded with minimal security 
requirements and testing, and an ever-increasing complexity of networks could lead 
to widespread vulnerabilities in civilian infrastructures and US Government 

This is why securing communications and devices is so very crucial, and it is where 
the situation grows complicated. Despite our deeply human tendency to react to the 
attack that is occurring right now, we must focus and analyze to determine what our 
most dangerous threats are. This can be difficult. Yet measured, carefully considered 
responses will be what secures this nation and its people. 

In the last decade, the United States has been under an unprecedented attack. . In 
2010, Department of Defense Deputy Under Secretary William Lynn said the theft of 
US intellectual property "may be the most significant cyberthreat that the United 

Lawfareblog, February 21, 2016, 
eye-if-we-did-not- follow-lead. 

lames Clapper, ".Statement for the Record: Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S Intelligence 
Community," February 9, 2016, p. 1. 


States will face over the long term/'i'* The cyberexploitation of US companies, in 
which attackers from overseas have reaped vast amounts of intellectual property, 
threatens the US economic strength. Make no mistake about it: this is an extremely 
serious national-security threat. 

Protecting US intellectual property is critical for US economic and national security. 
In a July 2015 Washington Post op-ed, former NSA Director Mike McConnell, former 
DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff, and former Deputy Defense Secretary William Lynn 
concurred, observing that. 

Strategically, the interests of U.S. businesses are essential to protecting 
U.S. national security interest ... If the United States is to maintain its 
global role and influence, protecting business interests from massive 
economic espionage is essential."!® 

Messers Chertoff, McConnell, and Lynn concluded that the security provided by 
encrypted communications was more important than the difficulties encryption 
present to law enforcement. 

As the Court noted in Riley/'’ the smartphones in our pockets are computers. They 
are, in fact, the most common device for accessing the network. So the cybersecurity 
threat applies as much to smartphones as it does to laptops, servers, and anything In 

Securing Society 

I’d like to turn now to encryption. I alluded earlier to NSA's efforts over the last two 
decades to secure private-sector telecommunications. Let me now present some 

Since the mid 1990s the NSA has actively been promoting the use of encryption in 
the private sector. This began with a 1995 incident in which NSA helped private- 
sector adoption of a new, more efficient cryptographic algorithm for securing low- 
powered, small devices.!! 

!! William J. Lynn III, "Defending a New Domain," Foreign Affairs, September/October 2010. 

!® Mike McConnell, Micbael Cbertoff, and William Lynn, “Why the fear over ubiquitous data 
encryption is overblown," Washington Post, July 28, 2015. 

!® 134 S. Ct. 2473 (2014]. 

!! An N SA representative present at an ANSI standards meeting spoke up to note that a new public- 
key cryptographic algorithm, whose security had been sharply questioned by the current provider of 
such algorithms, was in fact, secure. He said that it was sufficiently secure that the US government 
was adopting it for communications among all U.S. government agencies, including the Federal 


NSA participated in the Advanced Encryption Standards (AES) effort by vetting 
submitted proposals. This algorithm was chosen through an international effort run 
by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, and is an extremely strong 
system. In November 2001, two months after the attacks of September 11**', NSA 
concurred in the approval of AES as a Federal Information Processing Standard 
(FIPS). Designation as a FIPS means an algorithm or protocol must be In systems 
sold to the U.S. government or contractors; such a designation increases industry 
and international acceptance. 

A year and a half later, the NSA approved the use of AES to protect classified 
information as long as it was in an NSA-certified implementation.^® The decision had 
great impact, for it vastly increases the market for products running the algorithm, 
thus ensuring wider availability for non-classified users as well. From there the NSA 
went on to approve a set of publicly available algorithms for securing a network.!^ 

Why would the NSA go to such great efforts to support the deployment of strong 
cryptography in the private sector? Since the mid 1990s the Department of Defense 
(DoD) has relied on Commercial Off the Shelf (COTS) products for DoD 
communications and computer equipment. Use of COTS is required by law, but it is 
also good security practice, The speed of innovation by industry means that DoD 
must use COTS products in order to be cutting edge. iPhones and iPads have been 
cleared for DoD use since 2013.^' 

This is not to say every soldier must carry a locked iPhone, but rather, on balance, 
the US government has had much to gain from the security improvements of 
private-sector communications technologies. It is thus no surprise that the NSA 
supported many of these, including the widespread use of strong encryption 

Reserve. The result was that the algorithm was approved, and is now widely used. Tt was the first 
time anyone could recall the NSA endorsing a private-sector system in this way. See Aim Hibncr 
Koblitz, Neal Koblitz & Alfred Menezes, “lilliptic Curve Cryptography: 'i he Ser|3entine Course of a 
Paradigm Shift,” Journal of Number Theory, Vol, 131 (201 1), pp. 781-814. 

Committee on National Security Systems, National Security Agency, Policy No. 15, Fact Sheet No. 
Sheet No. 1, National Policy on the Use of the Advanced Encryption Standard [AES] to Protect 
National Security Systems and National Security Information, 2003. 

Center for Secure Services, Informatiiin Assurance Directorate, National Security Agency, Suite B 
Algorithms, (accessed by searching the 
archived copy of an older version of the website, available at: http://archive,today/mFaN] 

The Clinger-Cohen Act requires that DoD purchases of information technology use COTS whenever 
possible. See, more generally, Susan Landau, "Under the Radar: NSA's Efforts to Secure Private-Sector 
Telecommunications Infrastructure," journal of National Security Law and Policy, Vol, 7, No. 3 [2014]. 

Defense Information Systems Agency, "DISA Approves STIG for Government-Issued Apple iOS 6 
Mobile Devices," May 17, 2013, 


Are We "Going Dark"? 

Our hearing concerns whether the wiretapping worid is actuaiiy "going dark." And 
here the story does not appear to be quite the way the FBi sees it. For aithough the 
FBi has been expressing great concern since the eariy 1990s that encryption wouid 
prevent iaw enforcement from wiretapping,^^ the sky has apparentiy not faiien — at 
ieastforthe NSA. 

in the wake of the San Bernardino shootings, the Washington Post reported that, 

Mike McConneii, who headed the NSA in the 1990s during the first 
nationai debate over federai encryption poiicy, recaiied how 20 years 
ago, he was for back-door access to encrypted communications for the 

"NSA argued pubiiciy, 'We're going deaf" because of encrypted caiis, said 
McConneii, who now serves on the board of severai cybersecurity 
companies. The agency wanted a third party to hoid a key to uniock 
coded caiis. But the resuiting outcry — simiiar to the one heard in 
today's debate over smartphone and text message encryption — caused 
the government to back down. 

"We iost," McConneii said simply. And what happened? "From that time 
until now, NSA has had better 'siginf than any time in history," he said.^'' 

Nor is Director McConnell an outlier in this view, in the same article, former NSA 
Director Michael Hayden^'* was quoted as saying that, "this is far more of a law 
enforcement issue than it is intelligence.”^'' Hayden noted, "I'm not saying that NSA 
should not try to bust what Apple thinks is unbreakable encryption. All I'm saying is 
Apple should not be required" [to hold keys to decrypt data for the government].^'’ 

Nowit is not surprising that some of the ex-NSA directors might hold this opinion. 
The NSA has two roles: signals intelligence and information assurance. The NSA has 
grown more concerned about the latter as the theft of US IP has reached 

111 1992 the FBI's Advanced Telephony Unit warned that within three years Title III wiretaps 
would no longer work; at least 40% would be intelligible and in the worst case all might be rendered 
useless [Advanced Telephony Unit, Federal Bureau of Investigation, "'telecommunications Overview, 
slide on Encryption Equipment," 1992. FOAled document available at 
bttps://— smb/Telecommunications Overview 1992.pdf). 

Ellen N akashima, "Former national security officials urge government to embrace rise of 
encryption," Washington Past, December l.S, 2015. 

Director Michael Hayden was, also, of course Director of the CIA. 

Nakashima, "Former national security officials urge government to embrace rise of encryption," 



astronomical levels. The FBI continues to remain focused on investigations rather 
than prevention — a very serious mistake, in my opinion. 

The other reason for the split, of course, is that the NSA has far more resources and 
capabilities for conducting signals intelligence than law enforcement has. But that is 
exactly the point. In a technological world in which virtually every crime has a 
cyber component, the FBI needs technical expertise; it needs vastly more technical 
expertise than it has at present. 

The Role of Smartphones 

Not so long ago everyone In an Important job with confidential Information carried a 
Blackberry. This was the communication device of choice for those in high positions 
in government and the corporate world. Unlike the recent iPhones and Androids, 
Research in Motion, the manufacturer of Blackberrys, enables the phone’s owner 
(the corporation for whom the user works) to have access to the unencrypted text of 
communications. If Syed Farook had been carrying a Blackberry,^’' there wouldn't be 
a break-into-the-phone issue. 

But in the last decade Blackberrys lost popularity, losing the market to iPhones and 
Androids (that's because apps drive the smartphone business). Most people don't 
like to carry two devices. So instead of a Blackberry and an iPhone or Android, 
consumers choose to use a single consumer device for all their communications — 
and it happens to be a personal one. (Of course, that's not true for everyone. 1 am 
sure that many on this committee do carry two devices, one for government work, 
one for their personal stuff. People who work in the Department of Defense, or for 
defense contractors, the financial or other industries where keeping proprietary 
work data secure is crucial, may carry two devices.) 

As a society we have largely moved to a world of BYOD (Bring Your Own Device) to 
work. And what that means is not only is your personal stuff — your notes and 
calendars and contacts — on your smartphone, so is proprietary information from 
work. And so access to US intellectual property lies not only on corporate servers — 

If the FBI had not asked the San Bernardino Health Department to reset the password on the 
phone's iCloud account, there would not be a break-into-the-phone issue [Paresh Dave, "Apple and 
feds reveal San Bernardino's iCloud password was reset hours after the attack," Los Angeles Times, 
February 19, 2016). It is also the case that if the San Bernardino Health Department had installed 
"Mobile Device Management" on the phone it gave to Farook, there would not be a break-into-the- 
phone issue. [Tami Abdollah, "Apple CEO: Feds Should Withdraw Demand for iPhone Hack Help," 
ABC News, February 22, 2016, h ftp: //a'o cnews ./ha sic- software-held 
kev-shooters-iphone-uniised- 37 1069471 


which may or may not be well protected — but on millions of private 
communication devices. 

Smartphones bear little relation to the simple rotary dial devices that once sat on 
hallway tables. Not only are smartphones the recipients of '"our photos, our music, 
our notes, our calendars and contacts,"^® much of it sensitive data (this is often 
especially true of photos). Our smartphones are used for conducting transactions of 
monetary value — ordering and paying for Uber rides and extra moves on Candy 
Crush, transferring balances between bank accounts, etc. People are also 
increasingly using their personal smartphones for business, and as a result, these 
smartphones store important proprietary information. 

Smartphones are increasingly becoming wallets, providing access to accounts (not 
only financial, but also various online accounts, such as Dropbox), and storing 
emails and notes, including ones from meetings or design drawings and the like. For 
many people their personal smartphone acts as a convenient temporary repository 
for proprietary work information, information they know they ought to protect but 
rarely do as carefully as they ought. There are other ways of using phones for 
authentication; these rely on the device’s security." 

These smartphones are also used for authentication, that is, as a form of 
authentication to a device, an account, etc. And that means that the authentication 
information itself must be highly secured. Otherwise people in possession of the 
phone and with access to the data on it can break into other accounts. In short, 
smartphones are rapidly becoming a data repository of highly sensitive information, 
information that must be secured. 

Thus Apple’s secure by default provides an important improvement in security. 

Smartphones and Long-Term Strategies for Security 

Data theft through the Internet began three decades ago, starting with break-ins 
into military sites and the Defense Industrial Base.^'' As US companies began 
connecting their systems to the Internet, they, too, became targets. The scale of 
cyberexploition (data theft through networked systems) is what matters here. That 
scale is huge, and greatly worries General Alexander, Deputy Secretary Lynn, and 
many others in our government. 

Tim Cook, "A Message to Our Customers," February 16, 2016, 

.See, for example, Jason Healey, ed., A Fierce Domain: Conflict in Cyberspace, 1986-2012, CCSA 
Fublication, 2013. 


In the early days of the network, systems were poorly secured and data exfiltration 
was often the work of unsophisticated hackers. While aspects of that world still 
exist, the thieves are now far more sophisticated. Virtually every nation has its 
version of Cyber Command whose purpose includes spying via the network. 

How do the spies get in? In a public presentation in January.^" the Chief of NSA's 
Tailored Access Operations organization, Rob Joyce, observed that the most valuable 
data for attackers is your login credentials. Once an attacker has your login 
credentials — however briefly — he or she can establish a beachhead on your system 
that they can later use to exfiltrate data. 

What has this got to do with securing phones? Everything. Using phones for secure 
login has the potential to rescue us from much of the mess created by the ease with 
which login credentials — typically passwords — are stolen. Currently our 
smartphones are our date books and our wallets, but they are well poised to become 
our authentication devices. 

Smartphones already act as a "second factor’’ for authentication to accounts [e.g., 
Gmail]; you log onto your email account with a password and an SMS to your phone 
provides a one-time PIN that you also type in. The security advantage is that 
someone needs two things to log into your account; your password and the SMS 
message. 31 

There are tremendous advantages to this approach. First, a smartphone is 
something you have, which makes it more secure than the "something you know” of 
a password. (The latter is easily used without your being aware that someone else 
has the authenticator — while you'd notice quickly that your phone is missing.] As 
Google explains, "It’s an extra layer of security.”-^ And a phone is something you 
already carry all the time, which means you’re not carrying an extra device for 

A Michigan start-up, Duo, provides two-factor authentication apps for companies 
that need fast, easy ways to ensure secure logins for their employees. Facebook is a 
good example. Its software engineers needed a very secure way to log on their 
development servers to write and submit code. The login process had to be fast — 

3“ USENIX ENIGMA, hUps;y/wv%^w,youtufe^^^^ lanuary 28, 2016. 

31 In fact, someone could intercept the SMS and, if they knew your password, log in instead of you. 
That would be a relatively highly targeted attack, meaning that Gmail's two-factor authentication 
system substantially improves on the more frequently used single factor of a password. There are 
other alternatives, including a "Security Key/’ that would be even stronger. 

Google, “Stronger Security for Your Google Account," 


and simple; programmers have little patience and will find workarounds if a process 

is complicated.^^ 

There were various potential solutions: time-based tokens, one-time passwords, 
biometrics, smart cards and public keys. Each had serious problems,^^ and 
Facebook instead chose the Duo phone-based authentication solution for its 

Smartphones are used for security in other ways as well. Some of you have 
experienced Google's notification system that informs you about logins to your 
email account that are outside your normal behavior. The "Duo authentication feed" 
takes this security effort to a new level; it allows you to authenticate a transaction — 
for example, a login to an account — through a notification on your phone. You can 
respond while continuing your normal phone activity. This Is security with 
convenience, meaning it is usable and effective security. 

New technology means that smartphones are beginning to be used in even more 
creative ways to provide better security for authentication. This solves the problem 
that Rob Joyce says Is his (and presumably other nations') most valuable way to gain 
access to your system. 

Google is experimenting with a project where you log on by responding to a 
notification from a smartphone.'^'’ The holder of the smartphone gets the 
notification, responds, and then logs on to their account. 

The private sector is not the only place using these approaches. Some high-placed 
agencies within the government are also adopting such solutions (and no, no details 
are available). Where security matters, authenticating through the device that is 
always in your pocket and owned by you is a much more secure way to handle your 
login credentials than the systems we’ve been using up until now. 

If the information on the phone is accessible to Apple, it will be accessible to 
others — and this promising and important solution to protecting login credentials 
(which is, by NSA's description the most valuable way to break into systems) — will 
be ineffective. That's why locking down the data is so crucial for security. Rather 
than providing us with better security, the FBI's efforts will torpedo it. 

If only for this reason alone, security must be built in so that trusted but careless programmers 
don’t make it easy to breach a system. 

Time-based tokens timed out when a developer was authenticating to two machines at once; one- 
time passwords had synchronization problems; biometrics are not trustworthy if the user is remote; 
and the smart card solution had interception problems. See: Facebook's Security Philosophy, and 
How Duo Helps,, pdf 
Sarah Perez, "Google Begins Experimenting with Password-Free Logins,'' February 22, 201S, 


Securing the Smartphones Does Not Prevent Investigations 

Even though Apple has engineered excellent security for the iPhone, there are 
workarounds to access the encrypted data that do not involve Apple creating an 
update that circumvents its security protections. 

If a locked iPhone is brought to a WiFi network it knows, then the phone will 
automatically sync its contents with Apple’s iCloud if the phone is charging and the 
phone and iCloud passwords match. Unfortunately the San Bernardino Health 
Department changed the iCloud password on Farook's phone the evening of the 
attack, and so the mismatching passwords (the ones on the iPhone and iCloud 
account) eliminated this potential solution. Synchronization won't occur if the 
passwords for the phone and iCloud account differ. The iCloud password reset was 
done at the behest of the FBI, which was concerned that someone else might try to 
access or otherwise affect the phone’s iCloud backup.^* 

But there are other solutions. 

There are, of course, lots of sites that discuss jailbreaking the phone.^^ 

The Chaos Computer Club is a well established group of European hackers that has, 
for over thirty years, exposed security flaws in well-known systems. Their technical 
expertise is well respected. They ran a meeting last summer in which they 
demonstrated physical means, including the use of electron microscopes, to recover 
the data on security chips. Such techniques may well enable the recovery of the data 
on the iPhone, and would come cheap (as in well under fifty thousand dollars). 

The security in the iPhone stems from the DMA chip, a piece of hardware that can 
access main memory without going through the CPU, The iPhone DMA is using AES; 
what the FBI really wants is the key. There are firms that do forensic work in 
"decapping" chips to expose information on them. Rough estimate of costs are 
around half a million dollars. I've heard other estimates that come in much lower, 
say in the one hundred thousand dollar range. 

The point is that solutions to accessing the data already exist within the forensic 
analysis community. 

There's another way of addressing the issue about whether Apple is impeding an 
investigation. That’s to look at what information might be only be on the phone. 

Paresh Dave, “Apple and feds reveal San Bernardino's iCloud password was reset hours after the 
attack," Los Angeles Times, February 19, 2016. 

Breaking into a locked iPhone would likely require technical skills at the level of a signals- 
intelligence agency. 


keeping in mind that this phone was Farook’s work phone and that he and Maiik had 
destroyed their personai phones. 

Let's start with might be oniy on the smartphone. There are iikeiy to be text 
messages between Farook and his wife, there might be photos that Farook took of 
documents or peopie that might be of interest to the FBi, there might be 
communications between Farook and some of the Heaith Department employees he 

Now 1 understand due diligence, and I especially understand due diligence in a 
terrorist attack that could conceivably have connections with other potential 
terrorists. But aside from self-professed statements in support of terrorist 
organizations, Farook and Malik do not appear to have been communicating with 
other terrorists. If they had been, the information about whom they are 
communicating with was available not only on their phones [personal or work), but 
also at the phone company and/or the ISP. (Farook might have been communicating 
via iMessage on his work phone. In that case, if the FBI made the request of Apple, 
they would have gotten iMessage metadata available from Apple servers.'*'®] It is, 
however, extremely unlikely that Farook used his work phone rather than his 
personal one to conduct the private communications of interest. 

Farook's communications with his coworkers are presumably available on their 
smartphones: one assumes these did not have passwords reset and their contents 
are accessible. It would thus appear that the only useful information that is 
potentially on Farook's smartphone is his communications with Malik. 

In weighing the FBI request, one has to look at the potential gain and weigh it 
against the potential cost. In this case, the gain appears to be the possibility of 
developing a greater understanding of these self-radicalized terrorists. 

The Security Risks Arising from Apple’s Unlocking the Phone 

Beginning with iOS 8, Apple iPhones encrypt by default, that is, all data on the 
smartphone is automatically encrypted unless the phone is unlocked. The key to 
unlock the phone data consists of an "entanglement" of the smartphone PIN and a 
hardware key physically embedded in the device. That means to get at the data, one 
has to have the phone. Apple's operating system protects the security of the data in 
other ways as well: with each incorrect guess of the phone PIN, the phone delays the 

The Manhattan DA report on smartphones notes that "iMessage detail [dates, times, phone 
numbers involved”} does not appear at the phone company [Report of the Manhattan District 
Attorney’s Office on Smartphone Encryption and Public Safety, p. 12}. That’s correct. It is because an 
iMessage is an IP-based communication that goes through Apple servers. 


time until the next guess is allowed. In addition, iOS may wipe the smartphone clean 
after too many incorrect tries. The system is designed to "protect user data if the 
device is lost or stolen, or if an unauthorized person attempts to use or modify it.’’^^ 

Farook's work phone, an iPhone 5c, is an earlier device, but many of these 
protections are present on it as well. So at the FBI's request, the Central California 
District Court ordered Apple to create software that provides the FBI with: 

a Software Image File (SIF) that can be loaded onto [Farook's phone]. 

The SIF will load and run from Random Access Memory ("RAM") and will 
not modify the iOS on the actual phone, the user data partition or system 
partition on the device's flash memory. The SIF will be coded by Apple 
with a unique identifier of the phone so that the SIF would only load and 
execute on [Farook’s phone]. The SIF will be loaded via Device Firmware 
Upgrade ("DFU") mode, recovery mode, or other applicable mode 
available to the 

The software is to: 

by-pass or disable the auto-erase function whether or not it has been 
enabled, ... enable the FBI to submit passcodes to [Farook's phone] via 
the physical device port,"*! ... and ensure that when the FBI submits 
passcodes to the [phone], software running on the device will not 
purposefully Introduce any additional delay beyond what Is Incurred by 

Apple's hardware .^2 

In other words, the judge was asking Apple to create an Apple-signed device-specific 
software update tied to Farook's work phone.'^^ The update would enable brute- 
force testing of PINs without erasing the content of the smartphone. 

Let me briefly explain signing. Any complex digital device — a smartphone, a laptop, 
a thermostat, a car — will need software updates. Such updates are particularly 
important for patching newly discovered software vulnerabilities, but they have 
other functions as well. They provide new functionality (which means you don't 
need a new phone every six months). They also patch errors (all large software 

Apple Ine., iOS Security: iOS 9.0 or Later, September 2015, p. 4. 

United States District Court for the Central District of California, In the Matter of the Search of an 
Apple iPhone Seized During the Execution of a Search Warrant of a Black Lexus IS300 California 
License Plate 35KGD203, No ED15-0451M, Order Compelling Apple to Assist Agents in Search, 
February 16, 2016, p.2. 

^ This would vastly speed up the time to try different PINs. 

^ Order Compelling Apple to Assist Agents in Search, p.2. 

Signing is a cryptographic operation that validates the authenticity of a digital object; in this case, 
it is that the code came from Apple. 


systems have errors). And they keep complex digital systems working as the other 
systems around them change as they themselves are updated and improved. 

in order to assure your device that the smartphone software update is coming from 
Apple, the company "signs" the update, employing a cryptographic process using 
information only Apple has. This enables a smartphone (or laptop, thermostat, car, 
etc.) to know that the update is coming from a legitimate provider and prevents 
malicious actors from presenting so-called "updates" to your machine that are 
actually attempts to install malware. 

The FBI has argued that there is no security risk in Apple building and signing a 
device-specific software update tied to Farook's work phone. The update will be 
fully under Apple’s control and will be tailored to work only on the smartphone in 

These statements are both true and incorrect at the same time. That is, the FBI 
statements that the update will be under Apple's control and can be tied to work 
only on Farook's phone are factually correct. But they miss the point of the risks 

The fact is that the software cannot be developed, used, and deleted. Given that the 
phone's data may be used in investigations and court cases, the "break-in" software 
must remain available for examination. The longevity of the update code constitutes 
the first risk for Apple's iPhone users. 

While the FBI affidavit says this is a one-time use, other cases make that highly 
unlikely. A November 2015 report from the Manhattan District Attorney's Office 
states that, "Between September 17, 2014 and October 1, 2015, the District 
Attorney's Office was unable to execute approximately 111 search warrants for 
smartphones."*'* Were Apple to develop the code that the FBI is requesting, shortly 
afterwards the company would be inundated with requests from state and local law 
enforcement for the same capability. 

The frequent use that the code may be expected to have gives rise to the risk that 
Apple CEO Tim Cook described in a recent Q&A with the Apple employees: 

Law enforcement agents around the country have already said they have 
hundreds of iPhones they want Apple to unlock if the FBI wins this 
case, in the physical world, it would be the equivalent of a master key, 
capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks. Of course Apple would 
do our best to protect that key, but in a world where all of our data is 

*"* Report of the Manhattan District Attorney' s Office on Smartphone Encryption and i^ublic Safety, 
Novemher 201S, 


tion%20and%2QFi!biic%20SafeU'.Ddf p. 9. The 111 phones were all running iOS 8. 


under constant threat, it would be relentlessly attacked by hackers and 
cybercriminals.'^^ (emphasis added) 

At present each OS and firmware update is signed by Apple, enabling an Apple 
device to recognize the proffered update is approved by Apple and not We-Break- This signing key ensures the integrity of Apple updates, but it seems 
very likely that US law enforcement will frequently want to search locked IPhones. 
Each search will be targeted to a particular phone, which means Apple must update 
the code to Include the serial number of the target. Each particularized version of 
the code will need to be signed by Apple. That’s where the risk arises. 

Signing code is not technically hard. But a process that happens relatively rarely 
(e.g., when signing updates to the OS or firmware occur) is very different from the 
process for an event that occurs routinely (e.g., signing updates to accommodate 
frequent law-enforcement requests for access to the smartphones). Everyday use of 
signing updates to unlock smartphones means the signing process must become 
routinized. Though that doesn’t sound like much of an issue, it actually presents a 
serious problem. 

1 am concerned that routinlzing the signing process will make it too easy to subvert 
Apple’s process and download malware onto customers’ devices. My concern is not 
that the FBI will download rogue software updates onto unsuspecting customers; 
there is a rigorous wiretap warrant process to prevent government wiretaps from 
being abused. Rather 1 am concerned that routinization will make it too easy for a 
sophisticated enemy, whether organized crime or a nation attempting an Advanced 
Persistent Threat attack, to mislead the Apple signing process. 

A process that is used rarely — such is now the case in signing updates — is a process 
that can be carefully scrutinized each time it occurs; the chance for 
malfeasance is low, But make things routine, and instead of several senior people 
being involved in the signing process, a web form is used, and a low-level employee 
is placed in charge of code signing. Scrutiny diminishes. No one pays a great deal of 
attention, and it becomes easy for rogue requests to be slipped into the queue. 

All it takes for things to go badly wrong is a bit of neglect in the process or the 
collaboration of a rogue employee. And if the FBI, CIA, and NSA can suffer from 
rogue employees, then certainly Apple can as well. A phone that an unfriendly 
government, a criminal organization, or a business competitor wants to examine 
receives a signed security update from Apple. This enables the government, criminal 
group, or competitor to probe the smartphone and read its data when the 

Matthew Panzarino, "In Employee Email, Apple CEO Tim Cook Calls for Commission on Interaction 
of Technology and Intelligence Gathering," Techcrunch, February 22, 2016, 




smartphone is taken during a customs inspection, a theft, or a meeting in which all 
electronic devices are kept outside the room. 

A different issue is that smartphone owners may begin to distrust the automatic 
update process. One of the greatest improvements to consumer device security has 
been automatic security updates, what we in the trade call a "push” instead of a 
"pull." Would people stop automatic updates if they were concerned that law 
enforcement were using the updates as a surreptitious technique to search their 
devices, not for terrorist activity but, say, for tax fraud? 

Using updates that appear to have been signed by the company to deliver malware 
or surveillance technologies Is likely to undermine one of the few success stories of 
cybersecurity: automatic updates to correct flaws. How many people would stop 
automatic smartphone updates from Apple if they knew that the update could steal 
their bank account information? How many people would stop using virus scanners 
on their PCs if they knew that these programs were sometimes used by law 
enforcement to spy on their users? If this activity were to cause people to back away 
from using automatic updates for patching and the like, the impact on security is 
likely to be disastrous. 

Cryptography — and security technologies in general — protect data. Within that 
obvious statement lies a conundrum for the FBI. It would appear, that in its effort to 
use all tools to conduct investigations, the FBI has not fully considered the impact of 
its efforts on technologies that secure data (the lifeblood of the information 

There are potentially severe adverse cybersecurity consequences of the FBI 
approach. Apple has been carefully working to secure the data on customers' 
phones. Most security experts consider iOS to be the most secure platform — the last 
things we should be doing is seeking to weaken it. Were the District Court decision 
to be upheld, it will seriously undermine industry efforts in security. I don't doubt 
that Apple will continue to further engineering work to further secure the data on 
the smartphones''*’ [and other devices), but the government's actions would give 
serious pause to other companies pursuing that direction. 

International Impact of Forcing Apple to Unlock its Secured Phones 

There are also serious international consequences that would stem from Apple's 
developing code to unsecure its iPhone’s operating system. As I'm sure members of 
the committee are aware, when members of the US government and businesspeople 

Matt Apuzzo and Katie Benner, ".Security 'Arms Race’ as Apple Is Said to Harden iPhone," New York 
Times, February 25, 2016. 


travel to certain countries, they bring "loaner” devices with them — phones and 
laptops that are wiped clean before they leave the US and wiped clean on return."*^ 
That's the case even though the devices never have their network connections 
turned on, at least by the owner. Recommendations for security include such steps 
as removing batteries from a phone when at meetings (in order to prevent a 
microphone being turned on remotely}'*® and keeping the device with you at all 

Apple's efforts to secure the data on the iPhone should be viewed in this light. 

There is another international aspect to the FBI's efforts to unsecure the phone. 
United States support of human rights is a cornerstone of US foreign policy. It 
includes strong support for private and secure communications, for such 
capabilities are a necessity for human rights workers in repressive nations. 

There is no question that authoritarian governments in such countries as Russia and 
China will demand Apple deliver the same software that is it has been ordered to 
develop to handle Farook's work phone.®** Apple’s ability to resist such demands is 
made much more difficult if it has already created the code for US government use. 

Securing the iPhone follows in US government tradition of developing secure 
communication and data storage solutions for private-sector use. The US Naval 
Research Laboratories developed Tor, The Onion Router, an Internet-based tool for 
obscuring communications metadata (thus hiding who is communicating with 
whom}. At first glance, this might seem counterproductive; after all, criminals hide 
their tracks that way. But Tor is also remarkably useful for the military (obscuring 
that personnel in safe houses are communicating with US command}, for law- 
enforcement investigators (obscuring that a participant in a child porn chat room is 
actually an investigator from}, enabling human-rights workers and 
journalists working in repressive regimes a modicum of safety, etc. Tor functions 
most effectively in protecting users’ identities if more users are on the system (and 
if not all users are government employees}. 

Another project, one that has resonances with the iPhone, is a US Department of 
State Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor supported program that 

Nicole Perlroth, "Traveling Light in a Time of Digital Thieveiy," New York Times, February 20, 

2012 . 


See, for example, North Dakota State University, "Cyber Security Tips for Traveling Abroad with 
Mobile Electronic Devices," 

®** "And once developed for our government, it is only a matter of time before foreign governments 
demand the same tool." United States District Court for the Central District of California, In the Matter 
of the Search of an Apple iPhone Seized During the Execution of a Search Warrant of a Black Lexus 
IS300 California License Plate 35KGD203, No ED15-0451M, Order Compelling Apple to Assist Agents 
in Search, February 16, 2016, p.2. 


developed an information management tool, Martus.^^ Martus enables a group to 
create a searchable, encrypted database (say of human rights violations), and this 
database provides access only to members of the group that created the account. 

Given the threats to US businesspeople traveling overseas, and the strong interest 
and support of the US government to secure communication and data storage tools 
for human-rights workers abroad, the FBI stance makes no sense, if the FBI 
succeeds in having Apple develop software to unlock the phone, the bureau will, in 
effect, have provided our enemies with tools to use against us. But this is not the 
first time that the law enforcement has mistaken difficulties in conducting 
investigations with technology that must be changed to accommodate its needs. 
That approach mistakes where actual solutions should lie. 

We Have Been Down this Route Before — and It is Dangerous 

Five years ago I testified to a House Judiciary Subcommittee, the Subcommittee on 
Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security. At the time, FBI General Counsel Valerie 
Caproni expressed grave concern that due to encryption being used for 
communications (as opposed to for devices), the FBI was "going dark." At the time, 
the FBI sought to extend the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act 
(CALEA) to Internet, or IP-based, communications. 

Now CALEA is a very problematic law. Wiretapping is a way for an unauthorized 
third party to listen in to a communication. By requiring that wiretapping 
capabilities be built into telephone switches, the government created a security 
breach. Indeed there are many ways for nefarious sorts to take advantage of the 
opening afforded by law enforcement. 

The story of the ten-month wiretapping of the cellphones of one hundred senior 
members of the Greek government including the Prime Minister, the heads of the 
ministries of national defense, foreign affairs, and justice is well known.^^ Less well 
known is the fact that an IBM researcher found multiple security problems in a Cisco 
architecture for the equivalent type of switch for wiretapping IP-based 
communications.^'* But much more disturbing than either of these stories is the fact 
that when the NSA tested CALEA-compliant switches that had been submitted prior to 

***^ The Department of State supported deployment and training, particularly in Uganda and Zambia 
where LGBTQ activists use Martus for contact lists, testimonies, and similar information. 

"Martus 4,5: Strong Security, Easy Configuration, Enhanced Usability," 
htt ps:// 7/ martus-4-5-strong-security-casy-conf i gura t i on -enhanced- 
us ab ility/ . Benetech does not hold the keys and could not decrypt the data if requested to. 

Vassilis Prevelalds and Diomidis Spinellis, "The Athens Affair," IEEE Spectrum, Vol. 44, No, 7 (July 
2007], pp. 26-33. 

Tom Cross, "Exploiting Lawful Intercept to Wiretap the Internet," Black Hat DC 2010. 


use in DoD systems, NSA found security problems in every single switch submitted for 

CALEA did not apply to "information services," but in 2010, the FBi proposed that 
the law be extended to IP-based communications. As the world, knows, the Internet 
is remarkably insecure. Building wiretapping capabilities into switches and routers 
is a move that would make things substantively worse. And It is unnecessary, for 
there are other solutions that would provide law enforcement with the capabilities 
it needs without introducing new security flaws. 

Many Internet communications, such as those using Google or Facebook services, 
are available to the companies In the clear. Thus, these communications services, 
while not falling precisely under the CALEA umbrella, remain easy for law 
enforcement to access (as indeed they have under court order). 

Instead of requiring by law that communications systems be built "wiretap capable," 
it is possible to take advantage of the vulnerabilities of any large software system — 
and these include phones and computers — to install a remote wiretap. Called 

"lawful hacking” because It is legal (done under a court order) and "hacking" 
because it involves hacking into the devices, is a method that has been successfully 
adopted by the FBI. In fact, It is an approach that has been used by the Bureau since 
at least 2001,57 

The idea is simple — and relied on by attackers all the time. Using a wiretap warrant 
to probe a suspect's smartphone — or other communications device you wish to 
wiretap — and find a vulnerability on the device. Unfortunately such vulnerabilities 
are easy to find. Then law enforcement will need a second wiretap warrant to 
install the actual wiretap; the wiretap is installed by taking advantage of the 
vulnerability to download onto the device.^s 

Nowthis is an ugly sounding business, and indeed, civil libertarians have expressed 
concern about a wiretap solution that involves breaking into peoples' devices. But 
the fact is that if law enforcement is to continue to wiretap, it can do so either by 

55 Private communication with Richard George, Fortner Technical Director for Information 
Assurance, National Security Agency [Dec. 1. 2011). 

55 See Steven M. Bellovin, Matt Blaze, Sandy Clark, and Susan Landau, "Going Bright: Wiretapping 
without Weakening Communications Infrastructure," IEEE Security und Privacy, Vol. 1 1, No. 1, 
January/February 2013, pp. 62-72 and also Steven M. Bellovin, Matt Blaze, Sandy Clark, and Susan 
Landau, "Lawful Hacking: Using Existing Vulnerabilities for Wiretapping on the Internet," 
Northwestern Journal of Technology and Intellectual Property, Vol. 12, Issue 1, [2014). 

In the 2001 case, the FBI used software dubbed "Magic Lantern" to inject a virus into a remote 
computer and obtain the device's encryption keys. See B. Sullivan, "FBI Software Cracks Encryption 
Wall," NBC News, 20 Nov. 2001; www.nbcnews.coin/id/.3341694/ns/technology_and_science- 

55 This is the process by which criminals and other attackers download malware to extract data [of 
course, they do so without wiretap warrants). 


taking advantage of vulnerabilities already present in the system to wiretap or by 
requiring all systems be made vulnerable (the CALEA solution). Either you 
encourage security solutions that protect everyone by taking advantage of the security 
problems that already exist in the system, or you push everyone into less secure 
systems. The former strengthens society's security while still enabling 
investigations; the latter only serves to weaken us badly. 

A lawful hacking approach to wiretap investigations means that law enforcement 
must work a little harder Wiretapping investigations must be individually 
designed for each target (sometimes the same solution may work against more than 
one target). This is expensive, but that is not necessarily a had thing; it means that 
we are not encouraging widespread wiretapping. 1 know that this is a value the 
Judiciary Committee holds dear. 

The lawful hacking approach to wiretapping provides a roadmap for the locked 
smartphone situation. 

Solutions for Locked Phones: 

FBI Investigatory Capabilities for the Twenty-first Century 

Wiretap and search are extremely important tools for law enforcement, but 
encryption and locking down devices are extremely important security solutions for 
our data-driven, data-dependent society. But instead of embracing such 
technologies as an important and crucial security advance, law enforcement has 
largely seen such technologies as an impediment to lawfully authorized searches. 
This is a twentieth-century approach to a twenty-first century problem — but in that 
fact lies the possibility of a solution. 

In the late 1990s, the NSA faced a similar crisis. Seymour Hersh detailed the 
situation in the New Yorker, 

The NSA, whose Cold War research into code breaking and electronic 
eavesdropping spurred the American computer revolution, has become a 
victim of the high-tech world it helped to create. Senior military and 
civilian bureaucrats ... have failed to prepare fully for today's high- 
volume flow of E-mail and fibre-optic transmissions — even as nations 
throughout Europe, Asia, and the Third World have begun exchanging 
diplomatic and national -security messages encrypted in unbreakable 
digital code ...®° 

An NSA colleague once remarked to me that his agency had the right to break into certain systems, 
but no one ever guaranteed the right that it would be easy to do so. 

Seymour Hersh, "The Intelligence Gap," The New Yorker, December 6, 1999. 


As we all know, the NSA adapted. 

The FBI is where the NSA was in 1999, and it has been there for quite some time 
(certainly since well before CALEA’s passage). 

Given the types of adversaries the US faces, and the skills they have, we should be 
strengthening and securing all forms of cyber, including those in consumer hands. 
That's exactly what Apple has done. We should be praising Apple for this direction, 
and at the same time, we should help law enforcement to adopt a twenty-first 
century approach. 

The Bureau has some expertise in this direction, but it will need more, much more, 
both in numbers, but also in the depth. 

The FBI will need an investigative center with agents with a deep technical 
understanding of modern telecommunications technologies; this means from the 
physical layer to the virtual one, and all the pieces in between. Since all phones are 
computers these days, this center will need to have the same level of deep expertise 
in computer science. In addition, there will need to be teams of researchers who 
understand various types of fielded devices. This will include not only where 
technology Is and will be in six months, but where it may be in two to five years. 

This center will need to conduct research as to what new surveillance technologies 
will need to be developed as a result of the directions of new technologies. 1 am 
talking deep expertise here and strong capabilities, not light. 

This expertise need not be in house. The FBI could pursue a solution in which they 
develop some of their own expertise and closely manage contractors to do some of 
the work. But however the Bureau pursues a solution, it must develop modern, 
state-of-the-art capabilities for surveillance. 

Such capabilities will not come cheap, but the cost annually will be in the hundreds 
of millions, not in the billions. But given the alternatives — insecure communications 
technologies that preserve law-enforcement’s ability to search and wiretap at the 
cost of enabling others to do so as well — the cost is something we not only can 
afford, but must. 

Developing such capabilities will involve deep change for the Bureau, which remains 
agent based, not technology based. But just as the NSA had to change in the late 
1990s, so must the FBI. In fact, that change is long overdue. As many in law 
enforcement have said, many if not most crimes now have a cyber component. The 
FBI must develop advanced capabilities for such investigations, moving to a 
technology based investigation agency. It is not there now. 

Because of the complexity involved, state and local law enforcement will not be able 
to develop their own solutions for some, or perhaps many, cases. They will need to 
rely on outsiders, either contractors or an effort put together by the FBI. 


It is neither the time nor place to exactly map out the full solution of how such a law- 
enforcement advanced technologies surveillance center will work. That will take the 
expertise of law enforcement, technical leaders, and Congress to study and 
determine. But I place this before you not only as a solution to the conundrum that 
Director Comey and District Attorney Vance present you, but as the only solution 
that protects our security and enables law enforcement to do its job in the face of 
advanced communications technologies. 

What we as a nation, and you as lawmakers, need to do is enable the Bureau to 
develop that expertise and, also, to simultaneously determine the best way to 
develop structures to enable state and local law enforcement to take advantage of 
that expertise. 

Encryption and other protections (such as time delays as incorrect PINs are 
entered) secure our systems, and should never be undermined. Instead, the FBI 
must learn to investigate smarter; you. Congress, can provide it with the resources 
and guidance to help it do so. Bring FBI investigative capabilities into the twenty- 
first century. That's what is needed here — and not undermining the best security 
that any consumer device has to date. For that’s what Apple's iOS is. 

Summing Up 

Privacy is a deeply held human value; it is what enables us to laugh, to love, to tell 
embarrassing stories about ourselves, to take risks and expose ourselves, and to be 
deeply human. But while I care very deeply about privacy, I think that the business 
of securing communications and devices is ultimately a security versus security 
story, not a security versus privacy story. 

We have become highly dependent on our devices for conducting all parts of our 
lives, and this will only expand in the future. But instead of going forward, for a 
moment I want to look back, quite far back. 1 want to end by noting what the 
preamble to the Constitution says. 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect 
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide 
for the common defence [sic], promote the general Welfare, and 
secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do 
ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of 

Note that important phrase: "ensure the blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our 
Posterity." In the wake of the terrorist attacks in San Bernardino, it is easy to make a 
decision that argues in favor of short-term security by enabling this week's 


investigation. It is much harder to make the decision that provides for long-term 
safety. But the preamble tells us to do so. 

We have the option to press companies to develop as secure and private devices as 
they can, or to press them to go the other way. Let us make the right decision, for 
our safety, long-term security, and humanity. 

Thank you. 


Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Ms. Landau. 

Mr. Vance, welcome. 


Mr. Vance. Thank you. Good afternoon. Chairman Goodlatte, 
Ranking Member Conyers, and Members of the House Judiciary 
Committee. Thank you so much for allowing me to participate 
today. I’m testifying as a district attorney but on behalf of the Na- 
tional District Attorneys Association. And I’m very grateful for you 
giving us the opportunity to be here, because much of the discus- 
sion in the prior panel and in the comments by the other speakers 
here has been about the Federal Government and about the issue 
of security and cybercrime in the Federal context. But it’s impor- 
tant, I think, for all of us to recognize that State and local law en- 
forcement agencies handle 95 percent of the criminal cases each 
year around the country. So we have a very deep interest in the 
subject matter of this hearing today, and thank you for letting us 

Apple and Google’s decision to engineer their mobile devices to, 
in essence, be warrant-proof has had a real effect on the traditional 
balance of public safety versus privacy under our Fourth Amend- 
ment jurisprudence. And I agree with the comments. I think of ev- 
eryone here, including the many Members of the House, that we 
really need Congress to help solve this problem for us, and it’s why 
it’s so important that you’re undertaking this effort. But I think in 
looking at this issue, there are some basic facts from the State law 
perspective that really are very important in this debate but are 
not in dispute. 

And, number one, as Tim Cook said in his open letter to his cus- 
tomers of Apple of February 16 of this year: Smartphones, led by 
iPhone, have become an essential part of our lives. Nothing could 
be more true. We are all using our cell phones for every aspect of 
our lives. 

Number two, is that smartphones are also essential to criminals. 
Our office investigates and prosecutes a huge variety of cases, from 
homicide to sex crimes, from international financial crime, and in- 
cluding terrorism cases, and criminals in each of those cases use 
smartphones to share information, to plan and to commit crimes, 
whether it’s through text messages, photographs, or videos. 

Number three, criminals know that the iOS 8 operating system 
is warrant-proof. Criminals understand that this new operating 
system provides them with the cloak of secrecy, and they are, la- 
dies and gentlemen, quite literally laughing at us. And they are as- 
tounded that they have a means of communication totally secure 
from government reach. And I don’t ask you to take my word for 
it. In one lawfully recorded phone conversation from Rikers Island 
in New York, an inmate, talking about the iOS 8 default device 
encryption, called it, and I’m quoting, “a gift from God.” 

Number four, the encryption Apple provided on its mobile devices 
prior to iOS 8, that is before October 2014, was represented to be 
both secure for its customers and, importantly, was amenable to 
court-authorized searches. We know this because Apple told us 
this. Apple characterized its iOS 7 operating system as the ulti- 


mate in privacy. It touted its proven encryption methods and as- 
sured its users that iOS 7 could he used with confidence in any 
personal or corporate environment. During the time when iOS 7 
was the operating system, Apple also acknowledged, and I think 
importantly, its responsibility to help, again in Apple’s own words, 
“police investigating robberies and other crimes, searching for miss- 
ing children, trying to locate a patient with Alzheimer’s disease, or 
hoping to prevent a suicide.” So Apple’s experience, I believe, with 
iOS 7 demonstrated that strong encryption and compliance with 
court orders are not mutually exclusive. 

A default device encryption has had a profound impact on my of- 
fice and others like it. In November of 2015, my office published 
a white paper on public safety and encryption, and at that time, 
there were 111 iPhones from which we were locked out, having ob- 
tained search warrants for those devices. Now, 2 V 2 months later, 
when we submitted our written testimony for this Committee, the 
number was 175. Today, it is 205, which represents more than one 
out of four of the approximately 700 Apple devices that have been 
analyzed by our office’s own cyber lab since the introduction of iOS 

And, of course, that problem isn’t just in Manhattan. Prosecutors 
in Houston have been locked out of more than 100 iPhones last 
year, 46 in Connecticut, 36 in Chicago since January, and those are 
just a few of the thousands of phones taken into evidence each year 
around the country. 

So centuries of jurisprudence that have been talked about today 
have held that no item, not a home, a file cabinet, a safe, or even 
a smartphone, is beyond the reach of a court-ordered search war- 
rant. But the warrant-proof encryption today gives two very large 
companies, we believe, functional control over the path to justice 
for victims of crime, including who could be prosecuted and, impor- 
tantly, who may be exonerated. 

So our point, Mr. Chairman, is that we believe this line being 
drawn between public safety and privacy is extremely important. 
It’s affecting our lives. It’s affecting our constituents’ lives. And we 
believe that you should be drawing it, and we ask you to address 
this problem quickly. Time is not a luxury for State and local law 
enforcement, crime victims, or communities can afford. Our laws 
require speedy trials. Criminals have to be held accountable. And 
victims are, as we speak and we know in this audience, asking for 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Vance follows:] 


Written Testimony of New York County District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance, Jr. 

Before the United States House of Representatives 
Committee on the Judiciary 

“The Encryption Tightrope: Balancing Americans' Security and Privacy” 

Washington, D.C. 

March 1, 2016 

Good afternoon Chairman Goodlatte, Ranking Member Conyers, and Members of 
the House Judiciary Committee. Thank you for your attention to this issue, and for the 
opportunity to testify today. This Committee had invited the National District Attorney’s 
Association to participate in today’s hearing, and my colleagues at the NDAA, in turn, 
asked me to serve as the organization’s representative. I am grateful for this opportunity to 
speak with you on a topic of such importance and urgency to state and local law 

In recent weeks, the encryption debate has focused on the federal government’s 
investigation into the heinous terrorist acts committed in San Bernardino, California on 
December 2, 2015. 1 applaud our federal colleagues for their commitment to justice for the 
14 people killed, the 21 people injured, and all of their families. Law enforcement agencies 
at all levels, as well as crime victims’ advocates and other concerned community leaders, 
are watching this case with great interest. 



while the San Bernardino case is a federal case, it is important to recognize that 95 
percent of all criminal prosecutions in this country are handled at the state and local level, 
and that Apple’s switch to default device encryption in the fall of 2014 severely hanns 
many of these prosecutions. 

And that is why 1 am here today as a representative of the thousands of local and 
state prosecutors around the country: Smartphone encryption has real-life consequences 
for public safety, for crime victims and their families, and for your constituents and mine. 
In the absence of a uniform policy, our nation will effectively delegate the crafting of 
national security and law enforcement policy to boardrooms in Silicon Valley. That is, 
important responsibilities of our government will be carried out by Apple, Google,* and 
other technology companies, who will advance the best interests of their shareholders, not 
necessarily the best interests of our nation. 

For the reasons set forth below, the line between personal privacy and public safety 
should be drawn by Congress, not Silicon Valley. 

1. Smartphone Encryption’s impact on Law Enforcement and Crime 

The United States Constitution provides that local law enforcement agents may 
obtain access to places where criminals hide evidence - including their homes, car trunks. 

^ Google, through its parent company Alphabet, has also announced that it will require 
default full disk enciyption on its Android deGces. As Apple has been the public leader among 
technology companies in the question of default full disk encryption, I shall focus on it in these 
remarks, even though many of the points may be applicable to Google and other technology 

^ For backgroimd information on smartphone device encryption, see Report of the 
Manhattan District Attorney’s Office on Smartphone Encryption and Public Safety (Nov. 2015), 
ion%2()and%2()Public%20Safetv.p df. See also Testimony of New York Comity District Attorney 
Cyras R. Vance, Jr. Before the El.S. Senate Judiciary Committee (July 8, 2015), 
http:/Avvvw''doc/07-08-15%20Vance%20Testimonv.pd£ and 



storage facilities, computers, and digital networks - so long as the agents have a search 
warrant issued by a judge. Carved into the bedrock of the Fourth Amendment is a balance 
between the privacy rights of individuals and the public safety rights of their communities. 

iPhones are now the first consumer products in American history that are beyond 
the reach of Fourth Amendment warrants. Like everyone else, 1 value my privacy. And 1 
understand there is a fear arising out of mass security breaches, collection of bulk data, and 
warrantless surveillance. But that is not the access state and local law enforcement seek or 
expect. Police and prosecutors’ access to electronic data is grounded in and limited by the 
Fourth Amendment, which (a) authorizes only “reasonable” searches, (b) based on 
probable cause, (c) supported by a particularized search warrant, and (d) approved by a 
neutral judge. I believe the high burden imposed by the Fourth Amendment - not warrant- 
proof encryption - is our best protection from abuse. ^ 

Critics of law enforcement’s position often point out that for centuries, we have 
successfully conducted investigations without evidence obtained from smartphones, and 
therefore, we should be able to continue to investigate crime without such evidence. But 
Apple itself explained why accessing evidence on smartphones is now so critical. In an 
open letter to customers dated February 16, 2016, Apple CEO Tim Cook stated that, 
“Smartphones, led by iPhone, have become an essential part of our lives. People use them 
to store an incredible amount of personal information, from our private conversations to 

Response of Cyras R. Vance, Jr. to the Berkman Center’s Report, “Don’t Panic: Making Progress 
in the ’Going Dark’ Debate” (Feb. 5, 2016), https:/'eiease/dont- 
panic/Leiter CvrusVance Re DontPanic.pdf . 

’ Apple itself states that “less than .00673% of customers have been affected by government 
infomration requests.” hilp:/./ . 



our photos, our music, our notes, our calendars and contacts, our financial information and 
health data, even where w'e have been and where we are going.”‘‘ 

This is precisely why default device encryption cripples even the most basic steps 
of a criminal investigation. In the past, criminals kept evidence of their crimes in safes, file 
cabinets, and closets. Today, criminals, like the rest of us, live their lives on smartphones 
and store evidence of their crimes on smartphones. And when you consider that Apple’s 
iOS, together with Android, run 96.7 percent of smartphones worldwide, it should be clear 
why investigating a case without access to this evidence is doing so with one hand tied 
behind our backs. 

Opponents of our position also ask why law enforcement agencies cannot simply 
rely on data stored in the cloud. First, not all data on devices are backed up to the cloud. 
Even data that can be backed up may not be because smartphone users are not required to 
set up a cloud account or back up to the cloud. Even minimally sophisticated users who 
use their phones to perpetrate crimes know to avoid backing up their data to the cloud. And 
even if a user chooses to use the cloud, data on a device will not be backed up unless the 
device is connected to Wi-Fi,’ or for Android phones, a cellular connection. Additionally, 
although it may be possible to recover at least some deleted data from an Apple device, 
Apple states that once data has been deleted from an iCloud account, Apple cannot provide 
it in response to a search warrant. 

* Tim Cook, “A Message to Our Customers” (Feb. 16, 2016), 


’ See Apple, “iOS Security: iOS 9.0 or later” (Sept., 2015), 
http:.//ima°es.apDle.comAnisiness/docs/iOS Securiw Guide.pdf at p. 42. 



Other opponents point to the availability of metadata, which often can be obtained 
through service of a search warrant on a telecommunications carrier. Metadata typically 
consists of (a) the time at which a call was placed or a message sent, (b) the phone number 
of the caller or message-sender, as well as the phone number of the recipient of the call or 
message, and (c) in the case of a phone call, the duration of the call. But metadata does not 
include the substance of a call or message. Thus metadata, while useful, is extremely 
limited. With it, I can show that two people spoke before a criminal incident, but I cannot 
show what they said, and that information, of course, will be critical for proving their intent 
and the scope of their agreement. For law enforcement to investigate, prosecute, and 
exonerate effectively, the most substantive evidence should be reviewed and utilized. 

Likewise, iMessages -the default messaging platform between Apple devices - are 
transferred over Apple’s servers rather than across telecommunications channels. Thus, 
telecommunications carriers are not privy to iMessages, their content, or their metadata. 
Additionally, Apple is not required by any regulation to retain that information, indeed, 
Apple states that it does not retain the content of iMessages, and does not provide decrypted 
iMessage data in response to court orders.'’ 

The real-world effect of all of this is that Apple’s encryption policy frustrates the 
ability of law enforcement to prevent, investigate, and prosecute criminals, including the 
very hackers that Apple claims it wants to protect users against. Tt also impacts law 
enforcement’s ability to exonerate those suspected of, but not responsible for crimes. 

See Apple, “iOS Security: iOS 9.0 or later” (Sept. 2015), Secur iw G uide.pdf, at p. 39: ‘‘Apple does not log 
messages or attacliments, and their contents are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but 
the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data.” 



when Apple made the overnight switch to default device encryption in September 
2014, my Office began tracking the number of cases in which we recovered iPhones that 
we could not unlock and that we reasonably believed contained data pertinent to the case 
that we were investigating. As of the November 2015 release of our Report on. Smar®^ 
Encryption and Public Safety , we were locked out of 1 1 1 Apple devices running iOS 8 or 
higher. That number is now 175 - comprising one quarter of the approximately 670 Apple 
devices received by our in-house Cyber Lab during that same period. As Apple users 
continue to migrate to the newer operating systems, the percentage of iOS devices that we 
are unable to access has increased significantly; in fact, in recent months, approximately 
one out of every two Apple devices collected by my Office’s Cyber Lab is inaccessible. 
These numbers do not include Android devices or any devices that may have been 
processed by other district attorneys in New York City, or by the New York City Police 

The 175 Apple devices from which my Office is locked out represent investigations 
into the attempted murder of three individuals, the sexual abuse of a child, sex trafficking, 
child pornography, assault, robbery, identity theft, and all manner of other crimes. My 
colleagues from jurisdictions around the country have been running into the same road 
blocks in their efforts to investigate and prosecute serious crimes. For example, last year 
in Texas, Harris County District Attorney Devon Anderson’s Office encountered more than 
100 encrypted Apple devices from a variety of cases, including human trafficking, violent 
street crimes, and sexual assaults. In 2016, the problem continues with investigators unable 
to access eight to ten Apple devices every month. Similarly, in just the past two months in 
the Chicago area, Cook County State Attorney Anita Alvarez’s Cyber Lab has received 30 



encrypted devices that they are unable to access. The Connecticut Division of Scientific 
Services has encountered 46 encrypted Apple devices across a variety of criminal cases, 
including several matters involving child pornography. 

As prosecutors, we have the extraordinarily difficult task of explaining to crime 
victims, or their surviving family members, that we have hit an investigative road block or 
dead end in their case, simply because Apple states that it will not comply with search 
warrants. In this debate among law enforcement leaders, intelligence officials, civil 
liberties proponents, and technology companies, one important voice has largely been left 
out - that of crime victims and their loved ones. Safe Horizon, the nation’s leading victim 
assistance organization, recently explained how significantly encryption will hurt crime 

It is important to note the devastating impact that smartphone encryption 
can have on victims of crime and abuse. .. As a result [of default device 
encryption], perpetrators of child abuse and sexual assault are far less likely 
to be held accountable for these and other crimes. W e recognize and respect 
a phone user’s right to privacy. However, it is imperative that all evidence 
pertaining to criminal activity be available to law enforcement agencies 
with duly authorized search warrants. We owe no less to survivors of child 
abuse, human trafficking, domestic violence, and other violent crimes.’ 

II. Achieving a Balance Between Privacy and Security 

My Office’s Report — drafted in consultation with cryptologists, technologists, and 
law enforcement partners — proposed a solution that we believe is both technologically 
and politically feasible: Keep the operating systems of smartphones encrypted, hut still 
answerable to search warrants issued by neutral judges. We do not want a backdoor for 

^ Safe Horizon, “Safe Horizon on Apple’s Opposition to FBI Accessing Smartphones” 

(Feb. 1 8 , 20 1 6), littp:/./www.safehorizon.ore/n aee/ in-the-iiews-125./news./5afe-iiorizon-oii-a.PDles- 
opposition-to-fbi-accessing-smartphones-356.html . 



the government to access users’ information, and we do not want a key held by the 
government. We want Apple, Google, and other technology companies to 
maintain their ability to access data at rest on phones pursuant to a neutral judge’s court 

My Office has drafted, and provided to members of Congress, proposed federal 
legislation that requires designers of operating systems used on devices manufactured, 
leased, or sold in the United States to ensure that data on those devices, pursuant to a search 
warrant, are capable of being accessed in unencrypted form. Designers would not be 
responsible for decrypting, or ensuring the government’s ability to decrypt, any data 
decrypted by a user, unless the encryption used was part of the operating system’s design. 
This solution represents the reasonable, achievable, middle ground in this debate. 

Throughout our history, the government has enacted statutory schemes to balance 
business concerns with law enforcement compliance, particularly when those businesses’ 
products become an integral part of our lives. Those businesses recognize that they have a 
corporate responsibility to help protect victims from crime being perpetrated through the 
use of their products. One example is banks and financial institutions. As we learned more 
about how criminals were using banks to move money. Congress enacted statutes related 
to money laundering, fraud, and document preservation. Similarly, when it became clear 
that criminals were using phone lines to perpetrate crimes. Congress passed the 
Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, requiring telephone companies to 
provide an access point for wiretaps. 

Indeed, companies from every sector -finance, health care, transportation, energy, 
manufacturing, and telecommunications, to name a few - recognize and comply with the 



obligation to respond to signed court orders arising out of criminal cases. For example, in 
2014, Verizon received 287,559 United States law enforcement requests for data; they 
received 149,810 requests in the first half of 2015.* Facebook received 29,707 United 
States law enforcement requests for data in 2014, for the first half of 20 1 5, they received 
17,577 requests.'^ Now that smartphones have become as ubiquitous as landlines, it is time 
for Congress to enact legislation ensuring that law enforcement can access evidence of 
crime stored on smartphones with a judicial order. 

Rather than accepting its corporate responsibility, Apple touted in its marketing of 
iOS 8 that “Apple will not perform iOS data extractions in response to government search 
warrants because the files to be extracted are protected by an encryption key that is tied to 
the user’s passcode, which Apple does not possess.”'” In refusing to assist law 
enforcement, Apple contends that doing so would leave their customers’ infonnation open 
to hackers, foreign dictatorships," and other bad actors. Before I address that argument, I 
want to emphasize that there is probably no local law enforcement office in the country 

* Verizon, “United States Report.” hnpsr^ 

® Facebook, “United States Law Enforcement Requests for Data,” 
littps://EO\trcqucsts., 'country /United%20States/20 15-11 1/ . 

This language was previously found at httpsj//'w 3 vw,app!e,cpnVprivacy/gpvem^^ 
information-request s/. 

" Many in the technology industry' claim that if the U.S. government seeks access to 
smartphone evidence, the government w'ill “have little room to object” to requests from repressive 
regimes. See Open letter to Pres. Barack Obama (May 19, 2015), 


s,A 1 3 S-ll-VEncr\-ption Letter to Obama final n519l.5.Ddf This assertion ignores the fact that 
local law enforcement in the U.S. seeks access to infonnation only through a lawful judicial 
process. If a foreign nation’s government, repressive or not, wanted infomiation from an American 
company, it also would have to go through lawful processes in the U.S., either pursuant to a Mutual 
Legal Assistance Treaty (MEAT) or a letter rogatory'. If the foreign government used the MLAT 
process, the executive branch of the federal government would decide whether, in its discretion, 
the foreign government's request was proper. If die foreign govenmient used a letter rogatory, a 
federal court would make that determination. In either case, the request could be refused if the 
infomiation was sought for use in a proceeding that would violate human rights. 



that deals with more cybercrime and identity theft than mine, so of course we understand 
the importance of encryption. We want smartphone makers to offer the same strong 
encryption that Apple employed before iOS 8. Those previous mobile operating systems 
allowed data to be accessed on a seized device with a valid court order, and T am not aware 
of any documented security problems with those operating systems. Apple has never 
explained why its prior systems lacked security or were vulnerable to hackers and thus 
needed to be changed. 

Indeed, Apple characterized its prior encryption as the ultimate in privacy. Apple’s 
May 2012 guide to “iOS Security” - published before its switch to default device 
encryption - notes that “Apple is committed to incorporating proven encryption methods 
and creating modem mobile-centric privacy and security technologies to ensure that iOS 
devices can be used with confidence in any personal or corporate environment.”'^ 
According to Apple, iOS 7 “provides solid protection against vimses, malware and other 
exploits that compromise the security of other platforms.” 

And yet, under iOS 7, Apple maintained the ability to help - in their own words - 
“police investigating robberies and other crimes, searching for missing children, trying to 
locate a patient with Alzheimer’s disease, or hoping to prevent a suicide.”'^ Apple itself 
has demonstrated that strong encryption and compliance with court orders are not 

Apple, “iOS Security” (May 2012), 

https:/yweb,archiye,org/wieb/2012 102 1 133728/http:/hnages,appiCjCom,dpad/hiisj^^^^^^^ 

curitv Mavl2.pdf . 

” Apple, “Apple’s Commitment to Customer Privacy” (June 16, 2013), . 



Furthermore, it is not entirely clear what cybersecurity problem Apple’s new 
encryption is intended to solve. Individuals’ phones were not being stolen attrf hacked into. 
Prior to iOS 8, to bypass the lock on a passcode-protected phone, Apple required both (i) 
possession of the phone'”* and (ii) its custom method to bypass the device encryption. We 
never held the key, w'e have never wanted to hold the key, and we have never heard about 
a key held by Apple being stolen. Even if a hacker were able to learn Apple’s decryption 
process — which Apple guards closely — that hacker would also need to have the actual 
device to steal its data. Likewise, a thief who steals a person’s locked smartphone would 
also need to know either the victim’s passcode or Apple’s highly guarded decryption 
process to obtain the device’s data. 

There has been much discussion and concern about large-scale, institutional data 
breaches involving Home Depot, Target, and other large companies. These breaches are 
deeply disturbing, of course, but they have nothing to do with the level of encryption on 
iPhones. These two issues - large-scale data breaches from servers, and smartphone 
encryption - should not be conflated. Apple’s default device encryption would do nothing 
to protect against large-scale institutional data breaches or the use of malware. 

Apple and other proponents of device encryption have portrayed the new policy as 
a response to the concerns raised by Edward Snowden about data collection by the National 
Security Agency. But, once again, data collection has nothing to do with smartphone 
encryption. Smartphone encryption would not have prevented the NSA’s mass collection 
of phone-call data or the interception of telecommunications, as revealed by Mr. Snowden. 

Mr. Cook stated in his February 16, 2016 letter to customers diat in the wrong hands, any 
software it creates forthe government 'would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s 
physical possession.” (Emphasis added.) . 



Likewise, Apple has not explained how any software it may create for purposes of 
responding to search warrants - software which Apple keeps in its sole possession - would 
fall into “the WTong hands.” In its refusal to assist the government, Apple has not addressed 
the fact that it already can, and frequently does, bypass iPhone users’ passcodes. For 
example, Apple has the ability to access an Apple device remotely, such as when it tracks 
the location of a device and erases its contents remotely (“Find My iPhone”), or when it 
sends iOS software updates to the customer’s iPhone. Apple is able to do these things 
without knowing the particular device’s passcode. But Apple has never contended that the 
existing means for tracking and wiping devices remotely or pushing software updates may 
be exploited by bad actors. Rather, Apple maintains that its customers’ data is secure. 

Furthermore, Apple allows corporate administrators and other employers, through 
mobile device management (“MDM”) solutions, to access organization-owned and 
employee-owned devices remotely, and to modify the device's iOS software, settings, and 
data. According to Apple, “an MDM server can perform a wide variety of administrative 
commands, including changing configuration settings automatically without user 
interaction, locking or wiping a device remotely, or clearing the passcode lock so users can 
reset forgotten passwords.”'* Apple has never explained why MDMs - tools that Apple 
enables and promotes, and which allow third parties to access a user’s iPhone without a 
passcode - do not compromise an iPhone user’s security, while any software Apple 
develops in order to comply with a search warrant may fall into “the wrong hands.” 

I previously sought answers to a few of the questions raised in this testimony in 
letters sent to Apple and Google in April 2015. To date, I have not received a response 

' ' See Apple, “iOS Deployment Overview for 

Enterprise,”''docs/iOS Enterprise Deployment Overvie\v.pdf . 



from either company. Those letters are annexed to my Office’s Report on Smartphone 
Encryption and Public Safety, 
in. Conclusion 

Apple’s influence can be felt in every' comer of the globe. In its fiscal quarter ended 
December 26, 2015 alone, Apple reported record profits of $18.4 billion.'*’ But Apple is 
not above the law,'’ and its bottom lineisnot more important than the safety of Americans. 

In Mr. Cook’s February 16, 2016 letter, he argues that the FBI’s request for 
assistance in the San Bernardino case “threatens the security of our customers.” Mr. Cook 
and his colleagues at Apple have effectively decided that they know better than our elected 
representatives and professionals in law enforcement how best to keep Americans safe. In 
the absence of laws that keep pace with technology, we have enabled Apple and other 
technology companies to upset the balance between privacy and public safety established 
by centuries of jurisprudence. 

Technology companies should not be able to dictate who can access key evidence 
in criminal investigations. No device or company, no matter how popular, should be able 
to exempt itself from court obligations unilaterally. And they should not be able to write 
their own laws. I do not believe Americans would want to cede this vast authority to private 
enterprise. That authority should rest with the people’s elected officials. I urge Congress to 
enact a national solution. 

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this critically important discussion. 

Apple, “Apple Reports Record First Quarter Results” (Jan. 26, 2016), 

Notably, in testimony before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee in 2013, Mr. Cook told 
lawmakers: “We not only comply with the laws, but we comply with the spirit of the laws.” 

htt]3s:/./w\'pi'/pdf/'timcookooeningstatement.pdf . 



Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Vance. 

We’ll now proceed with questioning of the witnesses under the 5- 
minute rule, and I’ll begin by recognizing myself. 

Mr. Sewell, Director Comey created a dichotomy between this 
being a technology problem or a business model problem, and said 
that Apple was addressing this as a business model problem. Is 
that a fair contrast, or is this something else? 

Mr. Sewell. It’s by no means a fair contrast, Mr. Chairman. I’ve 
heard this raised before. It was raised in New York. It’s been 
raised in San Bernardino, and every time I hear this, my blood 

This is not a marketing issue. That’s a way of demeaning the 
other side of the argument. We don’t put up billboards that talk 
about our security. We don’t take out ads that market our 

We’re doing this because we think that protecting the security 
and the privacy of hundreds of millions of iPhone users is the right 
thing to do. That’s the reason that we’re doing this. And to say that 
it’s a marketing ploy or that it’s somehow about PR really, really 
diminishes what should be a very serious conversation involving 
this Congress, the stakeholders, the American people. 

Just with respect to the New York case. Judge Orenstein last 
night took on this issue head-on, and he said, in footnote 14 on 
page 40, he said: I reject the government’s claim. I find Apple’s ac- 
tivities and the position that they are taking conscientious and not 
with respect to PR or marketing. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Director Comey and Mr. Vance seem to suggest 
that the security provided by encryption on prior devices is fine, 
but advancing encryption technology is a problem. What do you 
think about that? 

Mr. Sewell. So it’s important to understand that we haven’t 
started on a path of changing our technology. We haven’t suddenly 
come to the notion that encryption security and privacy are impor- 

At Apple, this began back in 2009 with our encryption of 
FaceTime and iMessage. We’ve been on a path from generation to 
generation as the software and the hardware allow us to provide 
greater security and greater safety and privacy to our customers. 

What happened between iOS 7 and iOS 8 was that we were able 
to transform the encryption algorithm that is used within the soft- 
ware and the hardware of the phone to provide a more secure solu- 

Mr. Goodlatte. We are moving to end-to-end encryption on 
many devices and apps, not just Apple iPhones. Why is that hap- 

Mr. Sewell. I think it’s a combination of things. From our per- 
spective at Apple, it’s because we see ourselves as being in an arms 
race, in an arms race with criminals, cyberterrorists, hackers. 
We’re trying to provide a safe and secure place for the users of our 
devices to be assured that their information cannot be accessed, 
cannot be hacked or stolen. So, from our perspective, end-to-end 
encryption move is an effort to improve the safety and security of 
our phones. From the terrorist’s perspective, I think it’s an effort 
to communicate in ways that cannot be detected, but the terrorists 


are doing this independently of the issues that we’re discussing 
here today. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Now, if the FBI succeeds in getting the order 
that is in dispute that Apple has appealed to a final resolution, 
however long that takes, and they then get Apple to develop this 
device that will allow the 10 times and your — by the way, all of us 
here, we can’t turn that off, so 

Mr. Sewell. Well, we could show you how to do that. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Well, but inside our firewall here, we can’t do 
that. So we understand the reason, but that creates a separate vul- 
nerability, does it not, for people whose device falls in someone 
else’s hands, they could willfully try 10 times and erase what 
hasn’t been backed up on the device. 

But be that as it may, if they were to get you to develop that 
code and to apply it and then to crack the four-digit code to get into 
the device, once they get in there, they could find all kinds of other 
restrictions that Apple has no control over, right, with regard to 
apps that are on the phone, with regard to various other commu- 
nications features that the consumer may have chosen to put on 
there? Is that correct? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s absolutely right, Mr. Chairman. One of the 
most pernicious apps that we see in the terrorist space is some- 
thing called Telegraph. Telegraph is an app that can reside on any 
phone. It has nothing to do with Apple. It can be loaded either over 
the Internet or it could be loaded outside of the country. And this 
is a method of providing absolutely uncrackable communications. 

If what happens here is that Apple is forced to write a new oper- 
ating system, to degrade the safety and security in phones belong- 
ing to tens or hundreds of millions of innocent people, it will weak- 
en our safety and security, but it will not affect the terrorists in 
the least. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you very much. 

My time has expired. 

The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers, is recognized for 5 

Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And welcome to the witnesses. 

Let me start off with Professor Landau. Director Comey has just 
testified that until the invention of the smartphone, there was no 
closet, no room, or basement in America that the FBI couldn’t 
enter. Did encryption exist before the invention of the iPhone? 

Ms. Landau. Encryption has existed — for centuries. And, in par- 
ticular, there have been fights over encryption and the use of 
encryption in the 1970’s about publication; in the 1980’s about 
whether NIST or the NSA would control the development of 
encryption for nonnational security agencies; in the 1990’s about 
whether there would be export controls on devices with strong 
encryption. The White House changed those rules in 2000. 

We expected to see widespread use of strong encryption on de- 
vices and on applications, and the technologists’ response to Apple 
is: What took you guys so long? How, in the face of all the 
cybersecurity problems that we’ve had, did it take industry so very 
long to do this? 


Well, as our technical expert, let me ask you this: Is there any 
functional difference between asking Apple to break its own 
encryption, and what the FBI has demanded in California? 

Ms. Landau. I’m sorry. Asking Apple to break — I don’t quite un- 
derstand the question. 

Mr. Conyers. All right. 

Ms. Landau. What Apple is being asked to do is to subvert the 
security controls and go around. So it’s not breaking the 
encryption, but it’s subverting its own security controls. 

Mr. Conyers. Right. 

Ms. Landau. And is there any functional difference between that 

Mr. Conyers. And what the FBI has demanded in California. 

Ms. Landau. What it’s demanded in California is that Apple sub- 
vert its own security controls. 

Mr. Conyers. Uh-huh. Let me ask Mr. Bruce Sewell the same 
question: What is the functional difference between ordering Apple 
to break its encryption, and ordering Apple to bypass its security 
so the FBI can break the encryption? 

Mr. Sewell. Thank you. Ranking Member. 

Functionally, there is no difference. What we’re talking about is 
an operating system in which the passcode is an inherent and inte- 
grated part of the encryption algorithm. If you can get access to the 
passcode, it will affect the decryption process itself 

What we’re being asked to do in California is to develop a tool, 
a tool which does not exist at this time, that would facilitate and 
enable the FBI, in a very simple process, to obtain access to the 
passcode. That passcode is the cryptographic key. So essentially, 
we are throwing open the doors, and we are allowing the very act 
of decryption to take place. 

Mr. Conyers. I was hoping you’d go in that direction. Let me ask 
you this: There has been a suggestion that Apple is working 
against law enforcement, and that you no longer respond to legal 
process when investigators need your assistance. Is that accurate? 

Mr. Sewell. It’s absolutely false. As I said in my opening state- 
ment, we care deeply about the same motivations that motivate 
law enforcement. The relationship with law enforcement falls with- 
in my shop at Apple. The people that we have who assist law en- 
forcement every day are part of my team, and I’m incredibly proud 
of the work they do. 

We have dedicated individuals who are available around the 
clock to participate instantly when we get a call. As we’ve dis- 
cussed a little bit earlier in Director Comey’s testimony 

Mr. Conyers. I want to squeeze in one more question before my 
time runs out. 

Mr. Sewell. All right. I’ll try to be very quick. We do everything 
we can to assist law enforcement, and we have a dedicated team 
of people who are available 24/7 to do that. 

Mr. Conyers. Why is Apple taking this stand? What exactly is 
at stake in the San Bernardino case? 

Mr. Sewell. This is not about the San Bernardino case. This is 
about the safety and security of every iPhone that is in use today. 

And I’d like to address one thing that Director Comey raised. 
This is — there’s no distinction between a 5C and a 6 in this con- 


text. The tool that we’re being asked to create will work on any 
iPhone that is in use today. It is extensible; it is common; the prin- 
ciples are the same. So the notion that this is somehow only about 
opening one lock or that there’s some category of locks that can’t 
be opened with the tool that they are asking us to create is a mis- 
nomer. It’s something that we needed to clarify. 

Mr. Conyers. Thank you for your responses. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Wis- 
consin, Mr. Sensenbrenner, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Sewell, I think you know that I have been one of the privacy 
hawks on this Committee. And the whole debate over the USA 
FREEDOM Act was whether the NSA should go to court and get 
some type of an order or a warrant specifically naming the person 
or persons whose data is requested. And here, the FBI, you know, 
has done that. 

Now, in your prepared testimony, you said the questions about 
encryption should be decided by Congress rather than through a 
warrant based on a 220-year-old statute. I point out that the Bill 
of Rights is about the same age. Now, the FBI’s attempting to en- 
force a lawful court order. Apple has every right to challenge that 
order, as you have done. But why is Congress and not the courts 
the best venue to decide this issue? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, I think that, ultimately. Congress 
must decide this issue. So I’m completely in support of the position 
that you’re articulating. 

I think we find ourselves in an odd situation in a court in Cali- 
fornia, because the FBI chose to pursue, in an ex parte fashion, a 
warrant that would compel Apple to do something. We view that 
not as an extension of the debate, not as a way to resolve this 
issue; we view that as a way to cut off the debate. If the court were 
to grant the relief that the FBI is seeking, we would be forced to 
do the very thing which we think is at issue and should be decided 
by the American people. We’d be forced to create the tool. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. Now, what’s your proposed legisla- 
tive response? Do you have a bill for us to consider? 

Mr. Sewell. I do not have a bill for you to consider. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. Thank you. That answers that. 

Now, the FBI has provided some fairly specific policy proposals 
to ensure that law enforcement can access encrypted data with a 
warrant. What policy proposal would Apple support? You don’t like 
what the FBI said. What’s your specific response? 

Mr. Sewell. What we’re asking for. Congressman, is a debate on 
this. I don’t have a proposal. I don’t have a solution for it. But what 
I think we need to do is to give this an appropriate and fair hear- 
ing at this body, which exists to convene and deliberate and decide 
issues of legislative importance. 

We think that the problem here is we need to get the right stake- 
holders in the room. This is not a security-versus-privacy issue. 
This is a security-versus-security issue, and that balance should be 
struck, we think, by the Congress. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. Well, you know, let me make this observa- 
tion, you know, having dealt with the fallout of the Snowden rev- 
elations and the drafting and garnering support of USA FREEDOM 


Act. I can tell you, I don’t think you’re going to like what comes 
out of Congress. 

Mr. Sewell. Congress, we will follow the law that comes out of 
this process. We certainly understand. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. Well, the thing is, I don’t under- 
stand. You don’t like what’s being done with the lawfully-issued 
warrant. And most warrants are issued on an ex parte basis, where 
law enforcement submits an affidavit before a magistrate or a 
judge, and the judge determines whether the allegations of the affi- 
davit are sufficient for the warrant to issue. 

Now, you’re operating in a vacuum. You’ve told us what you don’t 
like. You said that Congress ought to debate and pass legislation. 
You haven’t told us one thing about what you do like. What are we 
going to hear what you do like so that Apple has a positive solution 
to what you are complaining about? You said it’s Congress’ job to 
do it. Now, we won’t shirk from that. This hearing, you know, is 
a part of this debate. The FBI has provided some policy suggestions 
on that. You haven’t said what Apple will support. So all you’ve 
been doing is saying, no, no, no, no. 

Now, our job in Congress, honestly, you know, as we did with the 
FREEDOM Act, and as we are doing with the Electronic Commu- 
nications Privacy Act update, is to balance our belief that there 
should be privacy for people who are not guilty or suspected of ter- 
rorist activity, and that there should be judicial process, which 
there has been, in this case. 

And, you know, I guess that while your position is because you 
don’t have anything positive, you know, is to simply leave us to our 
own devices. Well, we’ll be veiy happy to do that, but I can guar- 
antee you, you aren’t going to like the result. 

I yield back. 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, I do think we have said what we 
stand for and what we believe is the positive place. 

Mr. Sensenbrenner. No. You know, the thing is you’ve asked 
Congress to do something, and I asked you what Congress should 
do. You said we have nothing. Then I said the FBI has provided 
specific policy proposals to ensure law enforcement is able to get 
this information. 

Now, here we’re talking about the iPhone of a dead terrorist that 
was not owned by the terrorist, but was owned by San Bernardino 
County. Now, you know, the thing is is that I don’t have a govern- 
ment iPhone. I have my own iPhone, which I use extensively. But 
the terrorist had, you know, a government iPhone which belonged 
to the government. I think the government, San Bernardino Coun- 
ty specifically, would like to get to the bottom of this, and you’re 
resisting it. 

I said my peace. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Time of the gentleman has expired. 

The gentleman from New York, Mr. Nadler, is recognized for 5 

Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Let me begin by welcoming my constituent and the great district 
attorney of New York County, Cy Vance, by saying that I appre- 
ciate his enlightenment of the district attorney’s views of this di- 
lemma that we all face. 


Let me also suggest, in answer to Mr. Sensenbrenner’s questions, 
that I assume that Apple may have legislative suggestions for us 
after the courts come out with their determinations, and Apple de- 
cides they like the determinations or they don’t like the determina- 
tions, at which point Apple, and a lot of other people in institu- 
tions, I assume, will decide on specific legislative proposals. And it 
may very well be that this Congress will wait to see what the 
courts do, but we will see. 

Let me begin my questions. District Attorney Vance, Director 
Comey suggested earlier today that the relief sought by the FBI is 
limited to this one device, running this particular operating soft- 
ware in this one case. Now, I gather that you’ve mentioned you 
have over 200 phones faced with a similar problem 

Mr. Vance. Yes. 

Mr. Nadler [continuing]. That you don’t really think that this 
case will be limited to the one device; that, obviously, it’s going to 
set a precedent, maybe not the only precedent, for a large class of 
devices, including the ones that you’re interested in. 

Mr. Vance. There may well be an overlap between action in Fed- 
eral court where the FBI is in litigation and in State court. I do 
believe that what we should be seeking, collectively, is not a phone- 
by-phone-by-phone solution to accessing devices and the contents 
when there’s probable cause; we should be creating a framework in 
which there are standards that are required to — for a court to au- 
thorize access to a device and that it’s not based upon litigation as 
to whether you can get into a West Coast phone or an East Coast 

Mr. Nadler. Well, I assume that, eventually, either the courts 
will set one standard, or Congress will have to consider it. 

Mr. Vance. Right. Yes. 

Mr. Nadler. Professor Landau, several of your colleagues re- 
cently published the results of a survey of over — and this is similar 
to a question I asked Director Comey. Several of your colleagues 
recently published results of a survey of over 600 encryption prod- 
ucts that are available online. More than 400 of these products are 
open sourced and made or owned by foreign entities. 

If Congress would have passed a law, or for that matter, if the 
courts were to impose a requirement, that forcing U.S. companies 
to provide — forcing U.S. companies to provide law enforcement with 
access to encrypted systems, would that law stop bad actors from 
using encryption from open sources or foreign sources? 

Ms. Landau. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And what Apple’s 
product does is it makes encryption easy by default. And so it 
means, as I said, the secretary to the Chair of the Federal Reserve, 
the HVAC employee, the chief of staff in your office — of course, 
your office should be protected anyway, but the regular person 
using a phone has the phone secured. 

If Congress were to pass a law prohibiting use of encryption on 
Apple phones or however — you know, you wouldn’t say it just for 
Apple, what it would do is it would weaken us, but not change it 
for the bad guys. 

Mr. Nadler. And if someone purchased a phone from a foreign 
company, it could have the encryption that we prohibited an Amer- 
ican company from creating? 


Ms. Landau. That’s — if someone purchased a foreign phone, 
somebody can just download the app from abroad. They don’t have 
to buy a foreign phone. They can just download the app from any- 

Mr. Nadler. And let’s assume that Congress decided to prohibit 
purchase of foreign encryption systems. Is there any practical way 
we can enforce that? 

Ms. Landau. No. I mean, you would have to start inspecting so 
much as it comes over the Internet that it becomes an intru- 
sive — 

Mr. Nadler. So what you’re saying is that we are really debating 
something that’s undoable? 

Ms. Landau. That’s right. And we were there 20 years ago, 
which the open-source issue was part of the reason for the U.S. 
Government’s change in export controls, which is part of what en- 
abled — 

Mr. Nadler. Okay. Let me ask two very quick questions before 
my time runs outs. 

Mr. Sewell, the Eastern District Court yesterday, in its ruling 
that has been referred to, cited no limiting principle to the legal 
theory behind the FBI’s request as a reason to deny the order. Is 
there a limiting principle in the San Bernardino case? 

Mr. Sewell. Absolutely none. Congressman. 

Mr. Nadler. None. So it can be expanded indefinitely. 

And finally, Mr. Sewell, your brief, Apple’s brief to the court lays 
out several constitutional concerns. There’s computer code speech 
as protected under the First Amendment. What are the First and 
Fifth Amendment — well, let me just ask, what are the First and 
Fifth Amendment questions does this case raise? We’ve been talk- 
ing about statute, but let’s ask about First and Fifth Amendment 

Mr. Sewell. Right. Good question. Congressman. And bear in 
mind that what we’re being asked to do is write a brand new com- 
puter code, write a new operating system. The law, with respect to 
the applicability of computer code to speech, I think, is well estab- 
lished. So this is a compelled speech by the government for the 
purpose of the government. 

Mr. Nadler. Which is a First Amendment problem. 

Mr. Sewell. Which is absolutely a First Amendment problem. 
And bear in mind, this is a speech which Apple does not want to 
make. This is our position. 

On the Fifth Amendment, the issue is conscription. The issue is 
forced activity, forced labor. 

Mr. Nadler. Does anybody else on the panel want to comment 
on that question? 

If not, thank you. My time is expired, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The gentleman from California, Mr. Issa, is rec- 
ognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And I’ll pick up where you left off on forced labor. Do you know 
of any place in our history in which, except in time of war, when 
things are commandeered and people are told to do that, or when 
police are in hot pursuit, do you know a time in which people were 
forced to apply their inventive genius against their will? 


Mr. Sewell. Congressman, I’m not aware of it. The steel cases 
during the war were the ones that were most applicable. 

Mr. ISSA. Sure. And I certainly understand a different time and 
a different set of circumstances. 

Now, I want to do two things: So Ms. Landau, I’m going to come 
to you first. Your expertise is encryption. You were probably very 
young, but you remember 20 years ago the argument. Wasn’t it the 
FBI and then the late Mike Oxley and others that were cham- 
pioning that if we allowed more than 256-bit encryption, then the 
FBI couldn’t easily decode it, and that would be the ruin of their 

Ms. Landau. Right. And what you get instead is over the last 20 
years, the NSA has increasingly supported the secure technologies 
for private sector communications infrastructure, including the 
256-bit algorithm. 

Mr. IsSA. Okay. I’m going to ask a quick question, and it’s old 
technology, because I’m very good with analog world. But this hap- 
pens to be a January 29, 2015, patent that’s already in the record, 
and it’s a patent on basically self-destructing the contents inside if 
someone tries to forcibly open it. 

Now, the funny thing is, I was looking for the old patents going 
back decades and decades, because the military and others have 
used these. They’ve had acids and even more punitive, if you will, 
responses inside when we wanted to secure it. It’s not a new tech- 
nology, but there’s a new twist on it. 

Aren’t we, in a sense, the equivalent of saying, well, you can 
make something that destroys the documents but then you have to 
tell us how to defeat it? 

Ms. Landau. That’s exactly right. 

Mr. IsSA. Okay. And I’m looking and saying, there’s no history 
in that, but we’ve had plain safes for a very, very long time. This 
isn’t new. Do you know of any shredder company that has been told 
that they have to show you how to reassemble what they’ve shred- 

Ms. Landau. I don’t study shredding companies, but I’d be very 
surprised if there were. 

Mr. IssA. Mr. Vance, have you ever ordered a shredding company 
to put the paper back together, use their inventive genius 

Mr. Vance. Of course I haven’t. Congressman, but — but 

Mr. IssA. So you’re asking, in this case, for somebody to create 
a product for your service. And I want to focus on that and I’ll get 
to you, I promise. 

But Mr. Sewell, I’m going to look at you as the representative of 
the one of the great technology companies in our country. Apple 
gets its great technology people, I assume, from Stanford and MIT 
and other great universities, right? 

Mr. Sewell. We do, yes, indeed. 

Mr. IssA. And you don’t get all the graduates, right? 

Mr. Sewell. No, we don’t. We wish we did. 

Mr. IssA. So when I was talking to the Director, and saying, well, 
if you take — and it’s a hypothetical. My level of knowledge is way 
less than any of your folks, and probably any of the FBI’s. But if 
you take this hard drive, solid-state hard drive, you pull it apart — 
and he even used the word “mirroring.” Obviously, he had some 


discussion at some point — and you make as many images as you 
want, then you have a true original; but even if the self-destruct 
occurs, that original, you throw it away you take another one. 

So that part of what he’s asking you to do, they can do them- 
selves by pulling the chip out and having it imaged, if you will, in 
all likelihood. We’re not saying for sure. But he hadn’t checked it. 
So that’s a possibility. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. I believe so. We don’t know what the condition of 
the phone is and we don’t know what the condition of the RAM is, 
but yes. 

Mr. IssA. Sure. And of course, we’re not really talking about one 
phone. We know that. We’re talking about thousands of phones. 

And as I understand the technology used in your chip is you 
have burnable traces in your chip. So randomly, or in some way, 
when you’re producing each chip, you burn traces which create the 
encryption algorithm, and it’s internal. So the chip has its algo- 
rithm separate from the software. 

But that chip, when interfacing with an image, if you keep giving 
it new images, that’s the part that changes. So isn’t it at least con- 
ceivable that as to that phone, and perhaps the 175 in New York 
and others, that the FBI, or the NSA could, in fact, come up with 
an elegant brute force attack that would work on your phones and 
also would work on hundreds of other types of phones around the 
world; and that that technology with, if you will, those brilliant 
young minds from Stanford, MIT, and Kent State, my alma mater, 
you know, could, in fact, produce something that would not be 
available to the public; they would have control over, and they 
would be able to make it more universal than just trying to go 
through your source code, which, I understand — is it correct — 
they’ve never asked for. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. We’ve never been asked for our source code. 

Mr. IsSA. Okay. Mr. Chairman, if anyone else wants to opine on 
it, I would appreciate they be able to. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes the 
gentlewoman from California, Ms. Lofgren, for 5 minutes. 

Ms. Loegren. Well, thank you very much. I think this hearing 
is very helpful. 

And just to get it on the record, Mr. Sewell, I mean, you’re not 
objecting — let me step back. If you have something, and you are 
served with a warrant, you give that something up. Is that correct? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s absolutely correct, yes. Congresswoman. 

Ms. Loegren. So the issue here is you don’t have it, you’ve got 
no way to get it, and, therefore, you can’t give it, right? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s correct. 

Ms. Loegren. Now, if it were possible to do something that 
would get just this one thing without opening the door to everybody 
else’s stuff, would you have a problem with that? 

Mr. Sewell. Let me 

Ms. Loegren. Let me rephrase that, because you’re in court. 

Mr. Sewell. Sure. 

Ms. Loegren. That would be a different issue than breaking 
encryption generally, wouldn’t it be? 

Mr. Sewell. The best analogy that I can come up with, and I’ve 
been struggling with how do we create the right kind of analogy 


for this situation. If Apple had a hox somewhere that we could 
guarantee, we could assure 100 percent certainty, that anything 
that was put in that box was not susceptible to thievery, to attack, 
to corruption; if we had such a place in the world, we wouldn’t be 
here today 

Ms. Lofgren. Right. 

Mr. Sewell [continuing]. Because what we would have done is 
gone to our customers and we would have said, give us your pass- 
words. We can absolutely 100 percent protect them. And then if 
you lose your phone, if you need our help, we can just give you the 

Ms. Lofgren. But you didn’t do that because you can’t guarantee 
that, which is why you encrypted this phone. 

Mr. Sewell. Exactly right. And now the bizarre situation is that 
essentially, the FBI is saying. We all realize it’s silly that every- 
body would give you your password, but instead, we want you to 
build a tool that will get those passwords, and we’re telling you, 
you can put that tool in this box that doesn’t exist. 

Ms. Lofgren. So let me ask you this: Is it possible, theoretically, 
to create code that would preclude you from creating a system that 
would allow you to defeat the 10-try erase function? 

Mr. Sewell. We could write a program that would suppress that 
protective measure. 

Ms. Lofgren. So that you couldn’t do what it is you’re being 
asked to do? 

Mr. Sewell. Right. We’re being asked to do three things, but it 
is capable — we are capable of doing those three things. The issue 
is what’s the consequence of doing those? 

Ms. Lofgren. Right. But the question is also, I mean, this hear- 
ing caused me to go in and turn on the 10-erase function which I 
neglected to do before the hearing, thank you very much. But, you 
know, as you go forward, people are insecure about what’s safe. 

Mr. Sewell. Absolutely. 

Ms. Lofgren. And, you know, for example, you don’t have — and 
I think for good reason — what’s in iCloud is not encrypted. Is it 
possible to encrypt the data in iCloud? 

Mr. Sewell. Yes, actually, in the iOS 8 and 9 generation, we 
have encrypted the iCloud data. It’s encrypted in a different way 
than it was before and we think in a more secure way. 

Ms. Lofgren. Right. But you can still provide access to that? 

Mr. Sewell. It is encrypted in a different way 

Ms. Lofgren. But you could change that if you wished? 

Mr. Sewell. Yes. 

Ms. Lofgren. Now, let me ask you this. Dr. Landau: Now, you 
were involved with that paper that was published, I think, last 

Ms. Landau. Keys under Doormats. 

Ms. Lofgren. Thank you. That was an excellent paper. And I 
think for anybody who has — it’s dense. I had to read some pages 
two and three times to understand it. But for anybody — and actu- 


ally, I’ve asked unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to put that 
paper in the record from the cryptographers.** 

Mr. Goodlatte. Without objection, it will be made a part of the 

Ms. Lofgren. If you just go to the questions at the end, you see 
that this is a fool’s errand. We’ll never be able to do what is being 
asked of us by the FBI. It’s a practical matter; it’s just not achiev- 

But I’m interested in your take on, you know. Director Comey 
said, you know, they don’t want the master key. They just want 
this one bypass on security. Isn’t that exactly the same? 

Ms. Landau. It’s wrong, and it’s just, as Mr. Sewell said, once 
they’ve built that software, that software works for other phones. 
Of course, it has to have the serial number of the particular phone, 
so Apple has to sign — ^you know, has to take the software, put in 
a new serial number, sign it so the new phone accepts it. And 
that’s where all the security risks comes in, because it becomes a 
routine process, and as I mentioned during my remarks, routine 
processes get subverted. 

Ms. Lofgren. I’ll ask the final question. Mr. Sewell, it was asked 
earlier by my colleague, Mr. Richmond, about whether these other 
countries have better security than we do. If I take my phone, my 
iPhone with the current operating system to Russia or China, can 
they break into it? 

Mr. Sewell. With respect to the phone itself, we believe the 
encryption we provided in iOS 8 makes that effectively impossible. 
With respect to the things that are going on at the Internet level, 
there are very sophisticated techniques that can be used by mali- 
cious actors who have access to the Internet itself There are ways 
to fool the Internet into thinking that something is what it isn’t. 
And so I think there is a vulnerability still in that regard. But on 
the phone, what we’ve tried to do is to remove that possibility with 
iOS 8 and 9. 

Ms. Lofgren. Thank you very much, all of you, for your testi- 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentlewoman and recog- 
nizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Poe, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Poe. Thank the Chairman. 

Thank you all for being here. Fascinating, important discussion 
on this issue of, as you say, security/insecurity. 

As you know. I’m a former prosecutor and former judge, and 
dealt with warrants for 30 years, either requesting them or signing 
them. And this particular case, I think we’re really talking about 
two cases now. We’re talking not just about the San Bernardino 
case, but the New York case as well. Different facts, different 

Fourth Amendment, we have discussed — Fourth Amendment 
doesn’t really apply too much to this situation, because the posses- 
sion of the item is lawful in the possession of government. I do 
think it’s ironic, however, we’re talking about privacy. United 
States is supposed to lead on the issue, I think, on the issue of pri- 

**Note: The material referred to is not printed in this hearing record but is on file with the 
Committee. Also, see Lofgren Submission at: 

http: / / docs, / Committee / Calendar / By Event, aspx ?EventID= 1 045 73 


vacy. We’re the only one that has a Fourth Amendment. But we 
see that other countries seem to have more concern about privacy 
in their technology than maybe we do. I find that somewhat ironic. 

Let me ask you a couple questions. You discuss the idea of con- 
stitutional right, right of privacy. But in one of your testimonies, 
and I think it was Mr. Nadler from New York, he and I have a lan- 
guage barrier problem, so I’m not sure I understood his question. 
You mentioned the First Amendment and the Fifth Amendment. Is 
that correct? 

Mr. Sewell. I did, that’s correct. 

Mr. Poe. Briefly explain how you see this as a First Amendment 
issue as well as a Fifth Amendment issue. We don’t need to talk 
about the Fourth Amendment. We’ve discussed that. 

Mr. Sewell. The Fifth Amendment issue derives from the fact 
that we’re being asked to write code, and code is speech, and Su- 
preme Court has held that that speech is protectable. So we’re 
being asked to speak by the government. That speech is not speech 
that we want to make. And the First Amendment provides us with 
protections against being compelled to speak by the government. So 
that would be the First Amendment argument in a nutshell. 

The Fifth Amendment provides us with protection from conscrip- 
tion, protection from being forced into labor at the government’s 
will, except under the most extraordinary of circumstances, which 
I discussed with Congressman Issa. But that’s the Fifth Amend- 
ment issue. 

Mr. Poe. All right. Thank you. 

What this request, the results of the request, how would that af- 
fect Apple worldwide in other countries? 

Mr. Sewell. Well, there are a number of parts of that question. 
Congressman, so thank you. The way that this would affect Apple 
is that it would affect our customers. It would affect everyone who 
owns an iPhone, and it would create a risk for everyone who owns 
a phone that their data could be compromised, that their security 
could be compromised. 

With respect to the international question, I agree with you. I 
think America should be leading on this issue. And I think that the 
world is watching what happens right now in our government and 
what happens, even today, with respect to this particular debate. 

Our ability to maintain a consistent position around the world, 
our ability to say that we will not compromise the safety and secu- 
rity of any of our users anywhere in the world is substantially 
weakened if we are forced to make that compromise here in our 
own country. So I urge this Congress, and I urge the government 
generally to understand that to take a leadership role, give us the 
strong support that we need to resist any effort by other govern- 
ments to weaken security and privacy. 

Mr. Poe. One of the questions that was asked was talking about 
what is your solution, and I actually agree with Mr. Nadler. I know 
this is going to bother him a little bit, that there may be, after all 
this litigation, and there may be a solution that we haven’t thought 
of yet, but would not one option be Congress taking the position 
that prohibits the backdoor key security system, the Viper system, 
as I call it, from 

Mr. IsSA. Thank you, Mr. Poe. 


Mr. Poe. I said that earlier but you stepped out. The Viper sys- 
tem from being imposed, required, prohibit that from government 
requiring that type of system in specific technology like an iPhone? 

Mr. Sewell. I think that is certainly one possibility, yes, sir. 

Mr. Poe. Prohibit the key. 

Let me ask you something else. If courts rule that you’re re- 
quired to develop the technology, develop the software, would that 
software be able to be used on all those other hundreds of phones 
that are out there that the government lawfully has in their pos- 
session but they can’t get into? 

Mr. Sewell. Absolutely. There’s nothing that would preclude it 
from being used on any iPhone that is in use today. 

Mr. Poe. And my last question, would other countries then, if 
U.S. takes the position thou shalt give government the key, what 
will other countries, like China, require or request or demand of 

Mr. Sewell. So to date, we have not had demands like that from 
any other country. The only place that we’re having this debate is 
in our own country. But as I said before, I think if we are ordered 
to do this, it will be a hot minute before we get those requests from 
other places. 

Mr. Poe. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Johnson. Thank you, and thank the witnesses for being 

Mr. Vance, what’s the difference between a company being or- 
dered to use its best efforts — I think the language is — let’s see — 
reasonable — an order — a court order requiring reasonable technical 
assistance. What’s the difference between a court order requiring 
reasonable technical assistance to accomplish the bypassing or dis- 
abling of the auto-erase function versus a civil subpoena, or a court 
order pursuant to a subpoena, a motion to compel the delivery of 
information under that person’s custody and control? Is there a dif- 

Mr. Vance. I’m not sure. Congressman, there is a difference. 
They’re both court orders that are directing an end result. One may 
be in a civil context; one in a criminal context. 

But I would say that in this discussion, it’s very much a part of 
our history in America that when companies produce items or ob- 
jects, or commerce becomes ubiquitous in a particular area, that 
the company has to have the realization that part of a group of 
people who are using its products are using it to commit criminal 

Take a look at the banking system, currency transaction reports. 
So once it became obvious that criminals were moving cash through 
the banks, the response was you have to create and file transaction 
reports when cash is moved. 

When two companies like these two hugely successful and impor- 
tant companies own 96.7 percent of the world’s smartphone mar- 
ket, and we know that criminals — we know that criminals are 
using the devices to commit crimes — we’ve heard some of those sto- 
ries — I don’t think that it is new in American history, or in the con- 


text of business ethics or oversight for companies to have to adapt 
to the realities of the product they’ve created. 

Mr. Johnson. Because they are the only ones that can — a bank 
that received the cash would be the only entity in a position to sub- 
mit a currency transaction with the court? 

Mr. Vance. It would be the only one required to. If someone else 
had information about it, they could submit it, but it would be the 
only one who had firsthand knowledge. 

Mr. Johnson. Okay. Now, Ms. Landau, is it your opinion that 
the government should not have the ability to compel Apple to use 
its best efforts to accomplish a technical feat? Is that your opinion? 

Ms. Landau. So there are two answers to that. If you’re asking 
me a lawyer question, then I’m not a lawyer and I’ll dodge; but if 
you’re asking me as a technologist, then I would say that it is a 
security mistake. It’s a security mistake because that code 

Mr. Johnson. Because what Apple would do would inherently 
cause an insecurity in their system? 

Ms. Landau. That’s right. And it will be the target of organized 
crime and nation states, because it will be very valuable for some- 
body who puts a phone down as they go through Customs, for 
somebody who goes to a business meeting, and they’re not allowed 
to bring their phone in because it’s a meeting under nondisclosure, 
and the phone is sitting outside for a few hours. All sorts of situa- 
tions. The phone will become very interesting. And if there’s code 
that can actually get into the phone and get the data, that code is 
going to be the target of nation states 

Mr. Johnson. So once Apple creates the code, then it makes it 
susceptible to being stolen and misused? 

Ms. Landau. That’s right. 

Mr. Johnson. So, therefore, Apple should not be required to com- 
ply with the court order? 

Ms. Landau. I’m not answering the legal question. I’m answering 
the security question. The security question, it makes a real mis- 

Mr. Johnson. Yeah. Okay. And, Mr. Sewell, you would agree 
with that? 

Mr. Sewell. I would agree that if we’re forced to create this tool, 
that it reduces the safety and security not within our systems. Con- 
gressman, but with our users. 

Mr. Johnson. Let me ask you a question. What about the secu- 
rity and the safety of those whose liberty can be taken and lives 
can be taken due to an ongoing security situation which the FBI 
is seeking to get access to information about? Is there an interest 
in the public security that we’re talking about here? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, that’s what 

Mr. Goodlatte. The time of the gentleman has expired, but Mr. 
Sewell may answer the question. 

Mr. Sewell. That’s what makes this such a hard issue, because 
we’re balancing two different but very similar issues: private secu- 
rity, the security of people who use iPhones, the location of your 
children, the ability to prevent your children from being kidnapped 
or harmed, versus the security that’s inherent in being able to 
solve crimes. 


So it’s about how do we balance these security needs, how do we 
develop the best security for the United States. If you read the 
statements by General — any of the encryption specialists today, 
we’ll say that de-featuring or debilitating encryption makes our so- 
ciety less safe overall. And so that’s what we’re balancing. Is it the 
right thing to make our society overall less safe in order to solve 
crime? That’s the issue that we’re wrestling with. 

Mr. Johnson. Thank you. 

I yield back. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from South 
Carolina, Mr. Gowdy, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Gowdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Now, Mr. Sewell, you just mentioned a balancing. Can you give 
me a fact pattern where Apple would consent to the magistrate 
judge’s order in California? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, we will follow the law. If we’re or- 
dered to do this 

Mr. Gowdy. No, I’m asking for a fact pattern. You mentioned 
balancing. I want you to imagine a fact pattern where you balance 
the interest in favor of what the Bureau is asking you to do as op- 
posed to your current position. Give me a fact pattern. 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, what I said was we have to balance 
what is the best security for the country. Not balance when we 
should give law enforcement what they’re asking, but balance 
what’s the best security for the country. 

Mr. Gowdy. I thought that’s what we were balancing is public 
safety versus privacy. You also mentioned the First and Fifth 
Amendment. Can you give me a fact pattern where Apple would 
consent to the order of the magistrate judge? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, what I said was privacy, security, 
personal safety. 

Mr. Gowdy. Perhaps I’m being ambiguous in my asking of the 
question. Can you give me a fact pattern where you would agree 
to do what the Bureau is asking you to do in California, whether 
it be nuclear weaponry, whether it be a terrorist plot? Can you 
imagine a fact pattern where you would do what the Bureau is ask- 

Mr. Sewell. Where we would create a tool that doesn’t exist 

Mr. Gowdy. Yes. 

Mr. Sewell [continuing]. In order to reduce the security and 
safety of our users? 

Mr. Gowdy. Yes. 

Mr. Sewell. I’m not aware of such a fact pattern. 

Mr. Gowdy. So there is no balancing to be done. You have al- 
ready concluded that you’re not going to do it. 

Mr. Sewell. No, I’ve said that we will follow the law. If a bal- 
ance that is struck, if there is an order for us to comply with, 

Mr. Gowdy. There is an order. 

Mr. Sewell. That order is being challenged at the moment as we 
speak. There’s an order in New York that says 

Mr. Gowdy. I’m glad you mentioned the order in New York. 
That’s a drug case. You would agree with me the analysis in drug 
cases is very different from the analysis in national security cases. 


And even if you didn’t agree with that, you would agree that in 
footnote 41, the magistrate judge in New York invited this con- 
versation about a legislative remedy, which brings me back to 
Chairman Sensenbrenner’s question: Where is your proposed legis- 
lative remedy? 

Mr. Sewell. We don’t have legislation to propose today. Con- 
gressman. What we’ve suggested 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, then how will we know whether or not you 
think it strikes the right balance if you don’t tell us what you 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, where we get to the point where it’s 
appropriate for us to propose legislation, not just Apple, but the 
other stakeholders that are engaged in this process. I’m sure there 
will be legislation for Congress to consider. 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, let the record reflect I’m asking you for it now. 
I would like you to tell us what legislative remedy you could agree 

Mr. Sewell. I don’t have an answer for you today. No one’s had 
an answer for you today. 

Mr. Gowdy. Can you give me one? I don’t know whether Apple 
has a lobbyist. I suspect that you may have a government relations 
department, possibly. Can you submit legislation to Chairman Sen- 
senbrenner’s question that you could wholeheartedly support and 
lobby for that resolves this conundrum between you and the Bu- 

Mr. Sewell. It is my firm belief that such legislation can be 
drafted. I do not have language for you today. 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, but, see, Mr. Sewell, we draft it and then your 
army of government relations folks opposes it. So I’m just trying to 
save us time. The judge in New York talked about a lengthy con- 
versation. Sometimes circumstances are exigent where we don’t 
have time for a lengthy conversation. So why don’t we just save the 
lobbying and the opposing of whatever, Cedric Richmond or 
Hakeem or Luis and I come up with. Why don’t you propose it? Tell 
us what you could agree to? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, we’re willing to and we’ve offered to 
engage in that process. 

Mr. Gowdy. The legislative process or the debate process? 

Mr. Sewell. Both, of course. 

Mr. Gowdy. Will you submit legislation to us that you could live 
with and agree with? 

Mr. Sewell. If, after we have the debate to determine what the 
right balance is, then I think that’s a natural outcome. 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, how long is the debate going to last? 

Mr. Sewell. I can’t anticipate that. Congressman. 

Mr. Gowdy. Well, let me ask you this: You mentioned the First 
Amendment, which I found interesting. Are you familiar with voice 

Mr. Sewell. I’m sorry. Is that a case. Congressman? 

Mr. Gowdy. No. Voice exemplars are ordered by courts and 
judges for witnesses or defendants to actually have to speak. So a 
witness can see whether or not that was the voice that they heard 
during a robbery, for instance. Because you mentioned you have a 
First Amendment right to not speak. What about those who have 


been immunized and still refuse to cooperate with a grand jury, 
and they are held in contempt and imprisoned? So there are lines 
of cases where you can be forced to speak. 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, we’ve made an argument, a constitu- 
tional argument. If the courts determine that that argument isn’t 
firm, then we will lose the argument. 

Mr. Gowdy. I’m just asking you whether or not you agree that 
there are exceptions? 

Mr. Sewell. You’ve given me two examples that I’ve not heard 
of before. 

Mr. Gowdy. All right. How about back to the Fifth Amendment, 
because I’m out of time. Really quickly, the Fifth Amendment, you 
say you’re being conscripted to do something. But there’s also a line 
of cases where folks are conscripted to perform surgical procedures, 
or cavity searches or other things I won’t go into in mixed com- 
pany, where they are looking for contraband. So that’s a nurse or 
a doctor or an anesthesiologist that is conscripted by the govern- 
ment, you would agree? 

Mr. Sewell. I’m not familiar with these cases. But this is what 
the court will decide. 

Mr. Gowdy. Here’s what I’ll do. I’m out of time. I’ll get you the 
cases I’m relying on, if you’ll help me with the legislative remedy. 

Mr. Sewell. I look forward to the cases. 

Mr. Gowdy. Deal. Thank you. 

Mr. Goodlatte. Time of the gentleman has expired. 

The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Deutch, 
for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Deutch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I would start by saying this is really hard. I’m not looking to 
Apple to write the legislation to balance these very difficult issues 
between privacy and public safety. I don’t expect you to do it. I ex- 
pect us to grapple with it. And that’s what we’re trying to do here 

And I had raised the point earlier, but it’s a perfect lead-in to 
the questions I want to ask, that this focus on surgical procedures 
that we can force — that the government can force a surgical proce- 
dure to be done, sounds like it’s somehow equivalent. Certainly if 
we can do that, then we can require that a company create a way 
into its phone. 

Except, as I said earlier with Director Comey, that surgical pro- 
cedure is going to be done by the person that the government says 
should do it. And there is no one from around the world who, from 
their remote location, is going to be able to figure out how to con- 
duct surgery on that individual. 

Yet, in this case, and this is why this is so hard for me, in this 
case, there are people all over America and around the world who 
would be trying to figure out how to utilize whatever it is that’s 
created here, if this is where this goes, to access the phone. 

And Director Comey earlier — Mr. Sewell, Director Comey said 
it’s a three step — he believes it’s a three-step process that they’re 
asking. Can you just speak to that process? 

Mr. Sewell. I absolutely can. Thank you. Congressman. 


First, I agree with you that this is not a problem which — there 
are people that are trying to break into these systems. There are 
people who are trying to steal this information, if it existed. And 
their capabilities are increasing every day. So this is not a threat 
which is static. This is a threat which is increasing. 

The three parts that we’re being asked to develop are, first, a 
method to suppress the data deletion after 10 failed attempts. The 
second thing that we’re being asked to suppress is the time delay 
between successive attempts. Both of these are specifically tailored 
to deal with the situation where your phone is stolen, or some bad 
person is trying to break into it, and it’s specifically designed to de- 
feat the brute force attack. 

The third piece is interesting, because the third piece is the gov- 
ernment asking for us to rewrite the code that controls the touch 
screen, and allow them to put a probe into the phone and to bypass 
the need to enter numeric digits through the touch screen. The only 
reason that that makes sense. Congressman, is if you anticipate 
that this is going to be technology used on other phones, and other 
phones that likely have more complicated passcodes. 

Mr. Deutch. Right. So that’s the question, and Mr. Sewell, it’s 
a question for you, and Mr. Vance, it’s a question for you. This is 
one where if I believed — if I understand that what’s being asked of 
you is to create this weigh-in to this one phone, then I want you 
to do it. I do. And I can get past a lot of these privacy issues, if 
I believe that it’s, once in, and then this can then be disposed of, 
destroyed, and that will be the end of it. 

The question is, is that the case? And when you create it for this 
one, is it something that can be used on other phones? Director 
Comey, I don’t think, was clear about that, so I’d ask you that 
question, and Mr. Vance, I’d ask you the same question. 

Mr. Vance. If I can refer to actually the Doctor’s own paper. You 
need the phone physically at Cupertino to open it. And I refer you 
to her 

Mr. Deutch. I don’t have much time. I’m not sure that I under- 
stand what that means. I just want to know — cutting to the chase, 
I just want to understand, if this is created, is it something that 
not just could be used by you in the pursuit of justice, but by the 
criminal cyber terrorist, hackers, and really dangerous people who 
are looking to do bad things every day of the year going forward? 

Mr. Vance. Congressman, my point is simply that if this code is 
created, and you are looking at the risk to other devices, other 
Apple phones in the world, those phones are going to have to come 
to Cupertino to be opened. This is 

Mr. Deutch. Well, let me ask Mr. Sewell, then. I only have a 
couple seconds left. 

Mr. Sewell. That is incorrect. 

Mr. Deutch. Well, the question is, even if that’s correct. I’d like 
you to speak to it. Is it true that the hackers of the world, that 
there will be those who try to find a way to get around having to 
take the phone to Cupertino in order to conduct whatever operation 
is necessary to break in? 

Mr. Sewell. Unquestionably, Congressman, and that’s exactly 
the risk and the danger that we foresee. 


With respect to the comment that Mr. Vance just made, in fact, 
the request that we got from the government in this case was that 
we should take this tool and piece — put it on a hard drive, and 
send the hard drive to the FBI. The FBI would then load that hard 
drive into a computer, hook the phone up to the computer, and 
they would perform the entire operation. So that this whole tool is 
transportable on a hard drive. So this is a very real possibility. 

Mr. Deutch. So should we be concerned, Mr. Vance? I mean, 
look, I want to get into this phone, but shouldn’t we be concerned, 
if that’s accurate, that there’s something that’s being created that’s 
transported on a hard drive that winds up on another computer, 
that there is at least the risk that that gets stolen and then — and 
suddenly, there is — that not just a bad person and these terrorists 
that we desperately want to get and get this information, but sud- 
denly, all the rest of us who are trying to protect ourselves from 
the bad people and are trying to protect our kids from these bad 
people are potentially at risk, too? 

Mr. Vance. Congressman, I respectfully disagree with the col- 
league from Apple, but I will confess that his knowledge of the 
company is great. Apple has created a technology which is default 
disk encryption. It didn’t exist before. It exists now. Apple is now 
claiming a right of privacy about a technology that it just created. 
That right of privacy didn’t exist before Apple created the tech- 
nology, number one. 

Number two, I can’t answer how likely it is that if the Federal 
Government is given a source code to get through the front door 
of the phone, that is at risk of going viral. I think it may be over- 
stated to suggest that. 

But I can tell you this: If there’s an incremental risk that pro- 
viding the source code creates a vulnerability, what is that risk? 
Don’t tell us just millions of phones might be affected; tell us — I 
think they can do better than just giving us broad generalizations 
without specifics. 

But I can tell you this: The consequence, the other side of the 
weight, the consequence is in cases all over the country right now, 
in my jurisdiction, your jurisdiction, everywhere, families like the 
Mills family are not getting justice. 

And the direct consequence of this disk encryption is that inno- 
cent victims all over the country are not getting their cases solved, 
prosecutors are not doing the job that they have been elected and 
sworn to do, and there is a significant consequence to default disk 
encryption that I think needs to be balanced against a speculative 
claim of increased insecurity. 

Ms. Landau. I’d like to just add a couple of comments. This is 
not about a new right of privacy; it’s about a new form of security. 
And if we think about how the phones are used and increasingly 
how the phones are used, I certainly have two-factor authentication 
I use through my phone, but there are ways of using the phones 
as the original authentication device. 

And if you make the phone itself insecure, which is what is being 
asked for by law enforcement, you preclude that, and that is the 
best way to prevent stealing of log-in credentials, the use of the 
phone as authenticator. 


In terms of the risk of the disk and so on, it’s not the risk of the 
disk going out because the disk is tied to a particular phone. The 
risk is that somebody will come into Apple and provide a rogue cer- 
tificate that, you know, they’re from law enforcement or wherever 
and will get the ability to decrypt a phone that should not be 
decrypted, whether it’s the Chinese Government, or an organized 
crime group or whatever. That’s the risk we’re facing. 

Mr. Vance. May I, Congressman, with the Chairman’s permis- 

Mr. Deutch. My time is up. The Chairman has been very gen- 

Mr. Goodlatte. Well beyond the time, but briefly. 

Mr. Vance. The professor has not answered what about the peo- 
ple, the residents, the citizens, the victims whose cases are being 
put on the side, and not addressed why we have an academic dis- 
cussion, an important one 

Mr. Goodlatte. Well, it’s an important academic discussion be- 
cause before these phones existed, the evidence that you’re talking 
about didn’t exist in the form that you have had access to. Now the 
technology is moving to a new generation, and we’re going to have 
to figure out a different way to help law enforcement. But I don’t 
think we say we’re not going to ignore these vulnerabilities that 
exist in order to not change the fact that law enforcement is going 
to have to change the way it investigates and gathers evidence. 

The time of the gentleman has expired. 

The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Gutierrez. 

Mr. Gutierrez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

First of all. I’d like to ask through the Chair if Congressman 
Lofgren has a need for any time. I’d like to yield to her first. 

Ms. Loegren. Well, I thank you very much. 

You know, I don’t know you, Mr. Vance. I’m sure you’re a great 
prosecutor. I do know Mr. Sewell. He’s a great general counsel. 

But the person who really knows technology on the panel is Dr. 
Landau. And I’m interested in your comments about the 
vulnerabilities that would be created by complying with the mag- 
istrate’s order. And some have suggested that it’s speculative and, 
you know, academic and the like, but is that what your take on 
this is? 

Ms. Landau. Absolutely not. 

Ms. Loegren. The theory — I mean, we’re moving to a world 
where everything is going to be digital, and you could keep track 
of, you know, my — when I’m walking around the house I’m in, my 
temperature, opening the refrigerator, driving my car. And if that 
all is open to a legitimate warrant — I’m not downplaying the prob- 
lem the prosecutors have, but this is evidence you currently don’t 
have access to — how vulnerable is our country going to be? That’s 
the question for you. 

Ms. Landau. Extremely vulnerable. David Sanger’s article in to- 
day’s New York Times about the Ukraine power grid says that they 
got in, as I mentioned earlier, through the log-in credentials. It’s 
based on a DHS memorandum that talks about locking down var- 
ious systems. 

I served for a number of years on NIST Information Security and 
Advisory — Security and Privacy Advisory Board, and we used to 


talk to people from the power grid and they would say, oh, it’s 
okay. We’re not — our systems aren’t connected to the Internet. 
Well, they were fully connected. 

We are — whether you’re talking about the power grid, the water 
supply, whatever — we’re connected in all sorts of the disastrously 
unsafe ways. And as I mentioned earlier, the best way to get at 
those systems is through log-in credentials. 

Phones are going to provide the best way to secure ourselves. 
And so this is not just about personal safety of the data that all 
of you have on your phone, and it’s not just about the location of 
where your family is, and it’s not just about the business creden- 
tials, but it’s really about the, as you say. Congressman Lofgren, 
it’s really about the way we are going to secure ourselves in the 

And what law enforcement is asking for is going to preclude 
those strong security solutions. It also is very much a 20th century 
way of looking at a 21st century problem. And I didn’t get a chance 
to answer Congressman Gowdy, but the FBI, although it has excel- 
lent people, it hasn’t put in the investment. 

So Director Comey said — we talked to everyone who will talk to 
us, but I was at a meeting — I briefed at FCC a couple of years ago, 
and some senior people from DOJ were there. And I said, well, you 
know, NSA has scale X and scale Y, and DOJ said they won’t share 
it with the FBI, except in exceptional circumstances, they keep it 
for themselves. 

We’re in this situation where I think law enforcement needs to 
really develop those skills up by themselves. And you ask about 
what it is this Committee can do, it’s thinking about the right way 
for law enforcement to develop those capabilities, the right level of 
funding. The funding is well below what it should be, but they also 
don’t have the skills. 

Mr. Gutierrez. Thank you. 

So, I’m happy I yielded the time to you. I always know it’s one 
of the smartest things I do is work with Congressman Lofgren in 
this Committee. 

But I just want to share with you, look, I understand the com- 
peting interests here. But I think, Mr. Sewell, you should under- 
stand that I love your products. You know, I used to think, you 
know, house, then a car, now I think technology. Between what 
they charge me for the Internet, all the stuff I buy just to get infor- 
mation every day, it’s — ^but don’t worry, I can afford it. I’m not 
going into the poorhouse because of it. 

So I’m excited about all of the new things that I get to and how 
it improves my life. And so I’m thankful to men and women in 
technology for doing that. But a lot of times in this place, there’s 
adversarial positions taken, and I would hope, simply, that we 
would look for a way in which we put the safety interests of the 
American people. 

I understand that you think that if we find a back door, that that 
causes all kinds of insecurity. But in this Committee, I’m going to 
work with Congressman Lofgren, but I’m also going to work with 
Trey Gowdy. We’re going to work — a lot of times bipartisanship in 
this place is many times promoted, but very rarely rewarded in 


this place, because everybody says, oh, you should take one position 
or another. 

I’m going to take a position for the American people. While you 
might dispute, I kind of look at apple as an American company. I 
look at Toyota as a Japanese company, BMW as a German. I look 
at you as an American company, and so that’s the way I see you. 
You can dispute that, you may look at yourself as an international 
entity, but I always looked at you as the pride. When I take this 
phone as a member of the Intelligence Committee, and I take this 
phone to China, the Intelligence Community of the United States 
of America, the first thing before I get off that plane, they take it 
away from me. So there are bad actors out there already inter- 
vening with your products, or I don’t think the fine people of the 
Intelligence Community would take away one of the things that I 
need the most in my life. 

So having said that, I hope we might find a way so that we could 
balance the security needs and the safety needs of the people of the 
United States and their rights to privacy. I think it’s essential and 
important. And I want to thank you guys for coming and talking 
to us, and let’s try to figure it out all together. Thanks. 

Mr. Sewell. Thank you. Congressman. And I absolutely — I agree 
with what you said. And I think that — I am proud to work for 
Apple. And I think Apple embodies so many of the most valuable 
characteristics that make up America, make America a great place. 
We stand for innovation, we stand for entrepreneurship, we stand 
for empathy, we stand for all boats rise. And so I am very proud. 
And we are an American company, and we’re very, very proud of 

The point about security outside the United States is exactly the 
point that drives us. We are on the path to try to create the very 
best, most secure, and most private phones that we can. That’s a 
path that will probably never end, because the people that we’re 
competing with, the bad guys, not just in the United States, but 
all over the world, are on an equally aggressive path to defeat ev- 
erything that we’ve put into the phone. So we will continue from 
generation to generation to improve the technology, to provide our 
users with a safer experience. 

Mr. Gutierrez. Thank you, Mr. Sewell. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Richmond, 
is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Richmond. And I’m happy to follow Luis, because I guess 
we’re going to start — I’ll start where he left off. And I think about 
a 9-year-old girl who asked, you know, why can’t they open the 
phone so we can see who killed my mother, because I was there 
and heard it happen. 

So let me start with this: If the FBI developed the ability to 
brute force open a phone, would you have a position on that? 

Mr. Sewell. Without involving Apple, without having Apple 

Mr. Richmond. Yes. 

Mr. Sewell. - complicit in that. I don’t think we have a position 
to object or not object to that. I think if the FBI has a method to 
brute force a phone, we have no ability to stop them. 

Mr. Richmond. But are you okay with it? 


Mr. Sewell. Well, I think that privacy and security are vitally 
important national interests. I think that if you weaken the 
encryption on the phone, then you compromise those vitally impor- 
tant interests. 

Mr. Richmond. Well, I’m not asking you about the encryption. If 
they could hrute force open a phone, do you have a problem with 
that? I think that’s just an easy question. 

Mr. Sewell. Then I’m sorry. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding. If 
the FBI had the ability to brute force a phone, I would suggest that 
that’s a security vulnerability in the phone. So I would have a 
problem with it, yes. 

Mr. Richmond. Let me ask you another question, because I see 
you’re a lawyer. I’m a lawyer, and I would feel awful if I didn’t ask 
this. Brittney Mills 

Ms. Landau. I — can I just say something for a second? 

Mr. Richmond. In a second. Let me get through this question. 

Brittney Mills had a 5S phone operating on an 8.2 iOS. Does 
Apple, any employee, subcontractor, subsidiary, or anyone that you 
know of possess the knowledge or the ability to open that phone? 
Or unlock that phone? 

Mr. Sewell. We don’t. And I’m glad that you asked about the 
Mills case, because I think it’s instructive about the way that we 
do work together cooperatively. I know that we met with members 
of your staff 

Mr. Richmond. Look, and I’m not suggesting that you all don’t, 
but I just want to — I want to know, does anybody have the ability 
to unlock the phone first? And if you tell me no, then I get a no 
in public on the record and I feel a lot better about what I’m doing. 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, let me be clear. We have not said 
that we cannot create the tool that the FBI has asked us to create. 

Mr. Richmond. Right. And I’m not asking about creating any- 
thing. I’m saying does it exist now? Do you know anybody — or does 
anyone have the ability to do it right now? 

Mr. Sewell. Short of creating something new, no. 

Mr. Richmond. Now — and I — oh. I’m sorry. Ms. Landau. I prom- 
ised to let you answer. 

Ms. Landau. I just wanted to add that in security, we have an 
arms race. People build good products, somebody finds a vulner- 
ability. It could be the FBI, it could be — now, the FBI may not tell 
anybody about the vulnerability, but we have this arms race where 
as soon as somebody finds a problem, the next role of technology 
comes out, and that’s the way we do things. 

Mr. Richmond. So what would be your feeling if the FBI devel- 
oped a technology that they can plug something into the 

Ms. Landau. I think that the FBI should be developing the skills 
and capabilities to do those kinds of investigations. I think it’s ab- 
solutely crucial. And I think that they have some expertise, but it’s 
not at the level that they ought to have. And I think we’re having 
this conversation exactly because they are — they are really using 
techniques from — they’re using a mind-set from long ago, from 20 
years ago, rather than the present. 

Mr. Richmond. So they’re antiquated? 

Mr. Goodlatte. Would the gentleman yield? 


Mr. Richmond. Sure. 

Mr. Goodlatte. I just want to clarify. Both Mr. Sewell and Ms. 
Landau did not say subject to an authorized court-ordered warrant. 

Ms. Landau. Well, I certainly 

Mr. Goodlatte. And you’re not suggesting they develop this 
technology and then do what they think is best. They’ve got to do 
it subject to a warrant. 

Ms. Landau. Of course. Thank you. 

Mr. Richmond. And I’m glad you cleared that up, because I want 
to make sure that everybody understands what I’m saying. I don’t 
think any of this should happen without a court order. 

Now, you know, maybe I watch too many movies, and maybe I 
listen to Trey Gowdy too much. Some people would suggest if I lis- 
ten to him at all, that’s too much. But in the instance that there’s 
a terrorist that has put the location of a nuclear bomb on the 
phone, and he dies, how long would it take Apple to develop the 
technology to tell us where that nuclear bomb was, or would Apple 
not be able to develop that technology to tell us in a short period 
of time? 

Mr. Sewell. The first thing we would do is to try to look at all 
of the data that surrounds that phone. There is an enormous 
change in the landscape over the last 25 years with respect to what 
law enforcement has access to. So when we have an emergency sit- 
uation like that, whether it be a lost child or the airplane — when 
the Malaysia airline went down, within 1 hour of that plane being 
declared missing, we had Apple operators cooperating with tele- 
phone providers all over the world, with the airlines, and with local 
law — well, the FBI, to try to find a ping, to try to find some way 
that we could locate where that plane was. So the very first thing 
that we would do in the situation is to bring to bear all of the 
emergency procedures that we have available at Apple to try to 
find them. 

Mr. Richmond. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, can I just clarify, because I don’t want anyone to 
leave out of here thinking that Apple has not been cooperative with 
our district attorney in the effort to access the data, and, in fact, 
they came up with new suggestions, but my questions are just 
about the government’s ability to just brute open a phone at any 
point with a court order. So I don’t want to suggest that Apple has 
not been working diligently with my DA, who’s also been working 
diligently. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. Sewell. I appreciate that, Mr. Congressman. 

Mr. Goodlatte. The Chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes 
the gentlewoman from Washington State, Ms. DelBene. 

Ms. DelBene. Thank you for being here and enduring this for 
a while. It’s very, very important. 

In the earlier part of the hearing. Director Comey said that it is 
not a company’s job to worry about public safety, and I think that 
that is — would be very concerning for a company to send that mes- 
sage, given that we have technologies that impact people’s every- 
day lives in so many ways. And I assume you agree with that, Mr. 

Mr. Sewell. I absolutely do. I do not subscribe to the position 
articulated by Director Comey. 


Ms. Landau. I’ve worked for two Silicon Valley companies, Sun 
Microsystems and Google, and that’s certainly not what I saw at 
either one of them. 

Ms. DelBene. In the Brooklyn case decided yesterday. Judge 
Orenstein stated, in his opinion, that the world of the Internet of 
things, all of the connected devices and sensors that we see coming 
forward, the government’s arguments would lead quickly to a world 
of virtually limitless surveillance and intrusions on personal pri- 

So I’d like to explore the issue of encryption and securing the 
Internet of things a little bit. We often talk about security by de- 
sign when it comes to the Internet of things. And I’m sure we can 
all imagine the horror stories of insecure Internet of things, types 
of devices, like appliances being hacked that could cause a fire, or 
spying through baby monitors, hacking into a car, or tampering 
with a home security system. 

So I’m wondering — Dr. Landau, I’m wondering if you could com- 
ment on what this means in the encryption context and whether 
directives we’ve heard from the FTC, for example, to adopt security 
by design in the interests of protecting consumers from malicious 
actors is inherently incompatible with what you might call insecu- 
rity by design should that be mandated by the courts. 

Ms. Landau. Well, here you’re in a situation where the compa- 
nies often want to collect the data. So, for example, if you’re using 
smart meters, the company wants the data, the electric company 
wants the data to be able to tell your dishwasher, no, don’t turn 
on at 4 in the afternoon when air conditioning requirements are 
high in Silicon Valley right now, turn it on at 8 at night or 2 a.m. 
And so, in fact, it actually wants the individualized data. And if it 
has the individualized data, then it can certainly share it with law 
enforcement under court order. 

The security by design is often in the Internet of things securing 
data on the device and securing the transmission of the data else- 

The issue in the Apple phone is that the data stays on the device, 
and that’s the conflict that we’re having. For the Internet of things, 
it’s most useful if the data goes off the device to somewhere else 
where it can be used in a certein way. 

Ms. DelBene. And, Mr. Sewell, could companies open them- 
selves up to liability if vulnerabilities through law enforcement end 
up being exploited by a bad actor? 

Mr. Sewell. I think that’s absolutely true. Somewhat ironically, 
I suppose, we have the FTC at this point actively policing the way 
in which technology companies deal with these issues, and we can 
be liable under the — Section 5 or under the authority of the FTC 
if we fail to close a known vulnerability. 

Ms. DelBene. And, Ms. Landau, you talked about the issue of 
security versus security, and that this really is a debate about se- 
curity versus security. Could you explain a little bit more why? And 
are national security and cybersecurity incompatible, in your opin- 

Ms. Landau. So what we really have here over the last 20 years, 
as I mentioned earlier, is you see the NSA, and Snowden revela- 
tions aside, we don’t have time for me to describe all of the subtle 


points there, but you really see the NSA working to secure private 
sector telecommunications infrastructure, many, many examples. 

We have moved to a world of electronic devices, you talk about 
the Internet of things, that leak all sorts of data. And in order to 
protect ourselves, whether ourselves, our health data, our bank 
data, the locations of our children and so on, we need encryption 
and so on. But if you think more broadly about the risks that our 
nation faces and the risks of people coming in and attacking the 
power grid, people coming in and stealing data from whatever com- 
pany, and stealing patented information and so on, you see a mas- 
sive national security risk. And you’ve been hearing it from Gen- 
eral Keith Alexander, we’ve been hearing it from Hayden, we’ve 
been hearing it from Mike McConnell, we’ve been hearing it from 
Chertoff, all the people who have been involved on the DHS and 
NSA side. 

The only thing that can secure that is security everywhere, and 
the move that Apple makes to secure the phones is one of the many 
steps we need in that direction. 

Ms. DelBene. Thank you. My time’s expired. I yield back, Mr. 

Mr. Marino [presiding]. Thank you. I now am going to recognize 
myself for some questions. So welcome to everyone. We’d like to 
start with Mr. Sewell. 

I’m sorry. Mr. Sewell, pronouncing that name correctly? 

Mr. Sewell. You are. 

Mr. Marino. All right. I have some questions for you concerning 
China. In 2014, you moved your — what’s referred to as your Chi- 
nese cloud to China. Is that correct? 

Mr. Sewell. That is correct. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. And can you tell me whose data is stored in 
that Chinese cloud? Is it just people in China? Is my data stored 
in that cloud as well? 

Mr. Sewell. Your data is not stored in that cloud. 

Mr. Marino. Is it strictly limited to Chinese people? 

Mr. Sewell. There are a number of things that are in the cloud, 
so I should probably be clear about what’s there. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. 

Mr. Sewell. With respect to personal data, no personal data is 
there unless the individual’s data — the individual himself has reg- 
istered as having a Chinese address and having a Chinese access 
point. In addition, we have other data, which has to do with film 
content, movies, books, iTunes music. The reason we do that is be- 
cause of something called latency. If you’re streaming across the 
Internet, and you have to bring the data from the United States 
to China, there’s a lag time, there’s a latency piece, whereas if we 
move that data closer to China, either Hong Kong or mainland 
China, then we can provide a much better service to our customers. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. Can you tell me, what was the cost, in a ball- 
park figure, in the time to make the move to — for the United 
States to move Chinese information over to China in their cloud? 

Mr. Sewell. Sorry. Did you say in time? 

Mr. Marino. Yeah. Cost and time. 

Mr. Sewell. So the time — the cost is building the facilities. I 
don’t have a number for that. It’s certainly not something that I 


am aware of, although, of course, the company has that informa- 
tion. In terms of the time, once — once the server exists, once there 
is a receptacle for the data, in theory, it’s instantaneous. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. You may or may not know, but I was a pros- 
ecutor for a while, both at the State and Federal level. And we 
prosecutors are focused on a case and the crime concerned, and we 
want going to get our hands on anything we can to see that justice 
is served, but on the other side of this too, we’re talking about pri- 
vacy issues. And I’m very concerned about to what extent, if, for 
some reason, you were to change your mind about working with 
the FBI, or the court ordered that, what does that mean to our pri- 

Mr. Sewell. I think it means that we have put our privacy at 
risk. The tool that we’re being asked to prepare is something which 
could be used to defeat both the safety and the privacy aspects 

Mr. Marino. Let me get this clear, because there are many ru- 
mors flying around. And you’ve probably answered this a couple 
times, and I apologize. I’ve had to run and do something else. 

Are you saying that there is no method that exists now that you 
could unlock that phone and let the FBI know what is in there? 

Mr. Sewell. Short of creating the tool that they have asked 

Mr. Marino. Right. 

Mr. Sewell [continuing]. We are not aware of such a method, no. 

Mr. Marino. Now, you talk about the cost is an unreasonable 
burden and the time involved. That’s why I asked you what did it 
cost to move the cloud, what was the time. And you’re the expert. 
I’m not. 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, to be fair, we haven’t claimed that 
the time that it would take to create the tool is the undue burden. 
Our claim is that the undue burden is to compromise the safety 
and security of all of our customers. 

Mr. Marino. So it’s your position that if you do what the FBI 
wants to one phone, could you elaborate on that in the 33 seconds 
I have left as to why that would be an undue burden, keeping in 
mind that I’m very critical about our privacy? 

Mr. Sewell. Congressman, the answer is very simple. We don’t 
believe this is a one-phone issue. We don’t believe that it can be 
contained to one phone or that it would be contained to one phone. 

Mr. Marino. Okay. I see that my time has just about run out, 
so I’m going to yield back. 

And who’s next? Mr. Jeffries, Congressman Jeffries is next. 

Mr. Jeffries. I thank my good friend from Pennsylvania for 
yielding. I want to thank all of the witnesses for your presence here 
today. It’s been a very informative discussion. In particular, I want 
to thank DA Vance for your presence, and certainly for the many 
progressive and innovative programs that you have in Manhattan, 
proving that you can be both tough and fair as a prosecutor, and 
that has not gone unnoticed. 

Let me start with Mr. Sewell. There’s an extensive record of co- 
operation that Apple has with law enforcement in the San 
Bernardino case. Isn’t that fair to say? 


Mr. Sewell. That’s correct. For over 75 days, we’ve been working 
with the FBI to try to get to more information to try to help solve 
this crime. 

Mr. Jeffries. I think it’s useful to put some of this on the record. 
On December 5, the Apple emergency 24/7 call center received a 
call concerning the San Bernardino shooting. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s right. In fact, the call came in to us at 2:47 
a.m. On a Saturday morning. We have a hotline that exists; we 
have people who are manning that hotline. 

Mr. Jeffries. And you responded with two document productions 
that day, correct? 

Mr. Sewell. By 2:48 that morning, we were working on the case, 
and we responded by giving the FBI all of the information that we 
could immediately pull from our sources, and then we continued to 
respond to subpoenas and to work directly with the FBI on a daily 

Mr. Jeffries. Right. In fact, the next day, I think, Apple re- 
ceived a search warrant for information relating to at least three 
email accounts. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s correct. 

Mr. Jeffries. You complied with that request? 

Mr. Sewell. We did comply with that and subsequent requests. 

Mr. Jeffries. And so I think also on January 22, you received 
another search warrant for iCloud information related to the 
iPhone that was in possession of the male terrorist. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. That’s right. And it’s important that in the inter- 
vening stage, we had actually sent engineers to work directly with 
FBI technicians in Washington, D.C., and in Cupertino, and we 
provided a set of alternatives, or options that we thought should be 
tried by the FBI to see if there might be some possibility that we 
could get into this phone without having to do the tool that we’re 
now being asked to create. 

Mr. Jeffries. So the issue here is not really about cooperation, 
as I understand it. Apple has clearly cooperated in an extensive 
fashion as it relates to all of the information that you possess. 

The question, I think, that we all, on the Judiciary Committee 
and beyond, have to consider is the notion of you being asked, as 
a private company, to create anti-encryption technology that cur- 
rently does not exist and could jeopardize the privacy and security 
of presumably hundreds of millions of iPhone users throughout the 
country and the world. Is that right? 

Mr. Sewell. We’re being asked to create a method to hack our 
own phones. 

Mr. Jeffries. Now, Mr. Vance, are you familiar with the Arizona 
V. Hicks Supreme Court case from the late 1980’s? 

Mr. Vance. If you give me the facts. I’m sure I have read it. 

Mr. Jeffries. Okay. The Supreme Court held that police con- 
ducted an unconstitutional search of evidence that was not in plain 
view. It was a decision that was written by Justice Antonin Scalia. 
And the most important point that I want you to reflect upon is, 
he stated, in authoring the majority opinion, that “There is nothing 
new about the realization that the Constitution sometimes insu- 
lates the criminality of the few in order to protect the privacy of 
us all.” 


Do you agree that embedded in the fabric of our Constitution, the 
Fourth Amendment, and beyond, is the notion that we value the 
privacy rights of Americans so deeply, that, at times, it is some- 
thing that will trump law enforcement convenience? 

Mr. Vance. Congressman, I do sincerely believe that. What con- 
cerns me about the picture we are seeing from the 

State perspective is that Apple has decided that it’s going to 
strike that balance now with no access by law enforcement for full 
disk-encrypted devices even with a warrant. So they have created 
their own balance. They now have decided what the rules are, and 
that changes radically the balance that existed previously, and it 
was done unilaterally. So this Committee 

Mr. Jeffries. Well, I think — if I can 

Mr. Vance. Yeah. 

Mr. Jeffries [continuing]. Just interject. I mean, I think that 
that is a balance that ultimately the Congress is going to have to 
work out, and also the Article III court systems, certainly beyond 
an individual magistrate, who is not even appointed for lifetime 
tenure, is going to have to work itself through the court system, a 
district court judge, maybe the Ninth Circuit, ultimately the Su- 
preme Court, and so the company exercising its right in an adver- 
sarial system to have all facts being aired on both sides of the de- 
bate is very consistent, in my view, with American democracy and 

There is just one last question that I wanted to ask as my time 
is expiring, because you raised an interesting point earlier in your 
testimony about an individual who is a suspected criminal who 
claimed that the encryption technology was a gift from God. But I 
also noted, I think, in your testimony that this individual commu- 
nicated that in an intercepted phone conversation that presumably 
your office or others were wiretapping. Is that right? 

Mr. Vance. No, it’s not right. All phone calls from prison, out of 

Mr. Jeffries. Right. 

Mr. Vance [continuing]. Are recorded. 

Mr. Jeffries. Right. 

Mr. Vance. There’s a sign, when you pick up the phone, if you 
are in Rikers Island, that this is happening. So there’s a tape, and 
ultimately that tape was subpoenaed, and it’s from that tape that 
that conversation was transcribed. 

Mr. Jeffries. And if I could just, in conclusion, I appreciate the 
Chair’s indulgence. I think that illustrates the point, presumably, 
that it’s fair to say that, in most instances, bad actors will make 
a mistake, and at the same time that he is heralding the avail- 
ability of encryption technology to shield his activity from law en- 
forcement surveillance and engagement, he is ignoring a plain-view 
sign that these conversations are being recorded and subjecting 
himself to unfettered government surveillance. And I think that I 
have faith in your ability, in the FBI’s ability ultimately to out- 
smart the criminals and the bad actors without jeopardizing the 
privacy and the security of the American people. 

Mr. Vance. And in that case, our challenge is, because of our in- 
ability to access the phone, our inability to investigate further, any 
evidence of sex trafficking is not made available to us. 


So, yes, he did something that was not smart, hut the greater 
harm is the inability, in my opinion, of being able to get to the true 
facts, which, in fact, are extremely important as a matter of public 
safety to get access to. 

Mr. Jeffries. My time is expired. I thank you. 

Mr. Marino. I thank the gentleman from New York. 

And the Chair recognizes now the gentleman from Rhode Island, 
Congressman Cicilline. 

Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And thank you to our witnesses for your testimony and for this 
very important discussion. 

I think we all recognize there are few absolutes in the law, and 
so balancing occurs all the time. There are risks in developing this 
software that have been articulated very well during this hearing, 
and indeed, there are risks associated with an inaWlity to access 
critical information. So I think we are living in a world there are 
risks in both ways forward, and I guess my first question is: Many 
people who agree that Apple or any other company should not be 
required and there’s no authorization to require them to produce 
a product that doesn’t exist or to develop an intellectual property 
that doesn’t exist, many people who think that that’s correct won- 
der whether Apple has considered, in limited circumstances and 
maybe a standard you would set internally, if it in fact is a situa- 
tion that would prevent immediate death or serious bodily injury, 
coupled with a consent of the person or lack of objection — in this 
case, the person is deceased — where there is no privacy claim as- 
serted, in some very narrow category, whether there is a set of pro- 
tocols you might voluntarily adopt to provide that information or 
that software with then instruction that it be immediately de- 
stroyed; it be done in a SCIF, in a secure safe. I mean, is that prac- 
tical, something like that? Should that be part of this discussion 
that we keep hoping that the industry and the Justice Department 
will have in trying to develop something, or is that fraught with 
so many problems that it’s 

Mr. Sewell. Thank you for the question. Congressman. We have 
and spend a lot of time thinking about how we can assist our cus- 
tomers in the event that they have a problem, if they have lost a 
phone, if they have — they’re in a situation where they’re trying to 
recover data. We have a number of mechanisms to do that, and we 
will continue to improve those mechanisms as we move forward. 

It’s very important to us that we try to think about the con- 
sequences of the devices that we create. In this particular case, the 
passcode unlock is not something that we think lends itself to a 
small usage. The problem with this particular issue is that once 
you take that step, once you create the mechanism to unlock the 
phone, then you have created a back door, and we cannot think of 
a way to create a back door that can only be used beneficially and 
not be used by bad people. 

Mr. Cicilline. So you have, in fact, sort of already contemplated 
other ways in which you could make this information available in 
this case that would not have those sorts of broader implications? 

Mr. Sewell. And we have provided information in this case. We 
have provided logs. We have provided iCloud backup. We’ve pro- 
vided all the things that we have that are available at our disposal. 


Mr. CiCiLLlNE. Thank you. 

Ms. Landau, you say in your written testimony, the — in your 
written testimony, the point is that solutions to accessing the data 
already exist with the forensic analysis community. We did ask Di- 
rector Comey, and we probably limited our question too narrowly 
because we asked about the intelligence communities of the United 
States. It sounds like you’re suggesting that there may be capabili- 
ties outside the United States Government that the Justice Depart- 
ment or the FBI could contract with that are capable of doing what 
it is they’re asking a court to order Apple to do. 

Ms. Landau. That’s right. So I noticed that when Director Comey 
answered the question, he said: We talked to everyone who will 
talk with us. 

And I, as I mentioned earlier, I don’t know if you were here at 
that point, I had a conversation with some senior DOJ people a few 
years ago about using NSA tools in law enforcement cases, and 
they said: NSA is very loathe to share, because of course, when you 
share a tool, it can get into a court case, and then the tool is ex- 

And so I don’t know in the “we talked with everyone who will 
talk with us” how much NSA revealed about what they know and 
what they can do, so that’s the first place I would ask. Now, I 
phrased that incorrectly. That’s the first place that I suspect has 
some tools for exactly this problem. But, yes, there were discus- 
sions last week in Silicon Valley. There have been discussions I’ve 
had with colleagues where people believe, as Congressman Issa 
portrayed various potential solutions, that there are ways to break 
into the phone. 

There is, of course, a risk that the data might be destroyed, but 
I have described both in my testimony — written and verbal testi- 
mony, the FBI has not tried to develop this level of expertise and 
they should. 

Mr. CiciLLiNE. So it seems as if, you know, we are contemplating 
whether or not Congress should take some action to either grant 
this authority and then figure out what is the appropriate standard 
and test, et cetera. It sounds as if you think that is problematic 
and that, in fact, the real answer is a substantial increased invest- 
ment in the intelligence capability, the law enforcement capability 
to sort of keep pace with the advances that companies like Apple 
are making, that that’s really the best protection in terms of both 
law enforcement and the long-term security of the United States. 

Ms. Landau. That’s right. I don’t think actually there needs to 
be more authority, but there needs to be a completely different 
view of how it’s done. There probably needs to be some authority 
in terms of how do you handle it for State and local, because State 
and local will not have the resources, and so there has to be some 
sort of sharing of tools. And that’s a jurisdictional issue and also 
just a — you know what, an issue between bureaucracies that will 
have to be worked out, and that will have to be worked out through 
law and policy. 

But in terms of creating new authority, the FBI already has that 
authority, but it uses it at a much lower level, and I’m sure it’s 
funded at a much lower level. They need to move from the situa- 


tion they’re in to dealing with 21st century technologies in the ap- 
propriate way. 

Mr. CiCiLLlNE. Thank you. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. Marino. You bet. 

The Chair recognizes Ms. Lofgren from California. 

Ms. Lofgren. Could I ask just one quick question, Mr. Sewell, 
because I forgot when it was my turn? And we had asked Mr. 
Comey, somebody asked Mr. Comey about the changing of the pass- 
word, apparently the county did it at the request of the FBI. What 
did that do? Can you explain what happened? 

Mr. Sewell. Certainly. One of the methods that we might enable 
the phone in San Bernardino to do what’s called an auto backup. 
That is, the issue that the FBI is struggling with is to find data 
between a certain timeframe, the time of the last backup and the 
time of the horrific incident in San Bernardino. 

If the phone would backup, that evidence, that information would 
become available to the FBI. The way that we can back these 
phones up in an automatic way is we connect them to a known 
WiFi source, a source that the phone has already connected to be- 
fore and recognizes. If you plug the phone in and you connect it to 
a known WiFi source, it will, in certain circumstances, auto 
backup, and so the very information that the FBI is seeking would 
have been available, and we could have pulled it down from the 

By changing the password — this is different than passcode — but 
by changing the password, it was no longer possible for that phone 
to auto backup. 

Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for let- 
ting me get that information out. 

Mr. Marino. Mr. Sewell, I have one more question for you. Does 
China — does the Chinese Government have access to the cloud, or 
is there any indication that they have tried to hack the cloud in 
China to get information on the Chinese people? 

Mr. Sewell. Let me be clear about the question. The Chinese, 
undoubtedly, have the ability to access their own cloud. 

Mr. Marino. Yes. 

Mr. Sewell. But with respect to the U.S. cloud, we believe 
that — again. I’m struggling because of the words. The cloud is a 
synonym for the Internet. 

Mr. Marino. Yes. 

Mr. Sewell. So, of course, Chinese people have access to the 
Internet. Are we aware of a Chinese hack through Apple? No. But 
beyond that, I can’t say. 

Mr. Marino. You answered my question. Thank you. 

This concludes today’s hearing. I want to thank the panel very 
much for being here. 

Without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative days to 
submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional 
materials for the record. The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 6 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


Material Submitted for the Hearing Record 

( 179 ) 


Material submitted by the Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in 
Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Ju- 

March 1, 2015 

Congressman Bob Goodlatte 
Chairman, House Judiciary Committee 
2309 Rayburn House Office Building 
Washington, DC 20515 

Dear Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member: 

As your committee takes up “The Enciyption Tightrope: Balancing Americans’ Security and Privacy,” 
wc, the undersigned, write to make the following suggestions: 

# Legislation governing cases like Apple’s is, as Apple argues, probably inevitable. 

9 Unfortunately. Congress is currently ill-prepared to draft such legislation, given the complex 
technical and legal issues involved and widespread confusion over both aspects. 

€> Only an expert commission of independent experts can help draft legislation that appropriately 
balances the competing equities. 

# ihere simply is no middle ground on encr^tption: Congress has already recognized “the right to 
use enciyption” (i.e., secure End-to-End Enciyption (E2EE)). Any new legislation should 
reaffirm that right, whatever it says about cases like Apple’s. 

We also write to clarify two points of confusion in much of the media coverage of Apple case. 

First, while the Apple case involves an “encrypted iPhone.” the issue there is readily distinguishable 
from the central debate regarding enciyption that began in the 1990s and that recently flared up again 
in Congressional hearings last summer over tlie following questions: May Americans, and American 
companies, use end-to-end encryption {E2EE)? Or will software makers and service providers have to 
build a backdoor into communications systems so that law enforcement agencies may intercept all 

By contrast, the Apple case turns on what duties tech companies have to facilitate law enforcement’s 
access to an encrypted device - but not to decrypt the data itself. This is essentially parallel to the 
distinction drawn by the 1994 Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act, which requires 
telecommunications services to design their systems to be, essentially, wiretap-ready, subject to a 
carve-out for encryption. As summarized by the House Report on CALEA: 

Finally, telecommunications carriers have no responsibility to decrypt encrypted 
communications that are the subject of court ordered wiretaps, unless the carrier provided the 
encryption and can decrypt it. This obligation is consistent with the obligation to furnish all 
necessary^ assistance under 18 U.S.C. Section 2518(4). Nothing in this paragraph luould prohibit 
a carrier from deploying an encryption, service for which it does not retain the ability to 
decrypt communications for law enforcement access. The bill does not address the “Clipper 
Chip” or Key Escrow Encryption issue. Nothing in the bill, is intended to limit or otherwise 
prevent the tise of any b^pe of encryption within the United States. Nor does the Committee 
intend this bill to be in any way a precursor to any kind of ban or limitation on encryption 
technology. To the coriLraiy, [47 U.S.C. § 1002(dX3)] protecis the right to use encryption.' 

Congressman John Conyers, Jr. 

Ranking Member, House Judiciary Committee 
2426 Rayburn House Office Building 
Washington, DC 20515 

H.R Rep. No. 103-827, pt. 1, at 25 (1994), available at https: / / /tzorJk . 


CALEA, of course, covered only communications s^ratems, not devices like iPhones. But the question 
raised by the Apple case is, essentially, about the duties that tech companies not covered by CALEA - 
including device makers - should have to facilitate law enforcement’s access to theii’ products 
pursuant to a valid court order; it is not about whetiier they may offer encryption in tlie first place. 

This distinction is vital because the tw’o issues differ fundamentally. Wliether American companies may 
offer, and Americans may use, E2EEis, according to current technological/cryptographic consensus, a 
"binaiy'” (yes/no) question: either the user holds the key necessary to decrypt communications (secure 
E2EE), or there is a master key that can open those communications (no E2EE). Whether that master 
key is held by a service provider, the goveimment, or some otfier third party is immaterial: With the 
encryption key in another party’s hands, the user simply no lor^er has access to a fully secure system. 

But the Apple case presents no choice so stark. There has always been a ran^e of possible luayis to 
configure device secunty. Unlike enciyption, other security design decisions work on a sliding scale, 
which means the needs of law enforcement, for example, can generally be accommodated, to some 
degree, without fundamentally undermining the purpose of a security' mechanism. Detei niining the 
hight" approach to device security thus involves difficult tradeoffs among competing values: legitimate 
access by law enforcement, user securityy convenience for users, costs of compliance, the courts' 
interest in ‘'achiev[ing] the ends of justice,"’ and so on. 

We take no position here on how the precise question in the Apple case should be resolved, either 
under the All Writs Act (AWA) or in future legislation. We simply note that reasonable minds can differ 
on the Apple case and other cases involving facilitation of law enforcement access to data (if only still 
in its encrypted form), both on law’’ and on policy, while still agreeing that the “the right to use 
encryi:)tion” should be reaffirmed in American lawc 

Second, contrary to its depiction in much media coverage, the AWA is not a reactionary throwback, 
but rather a core part of the American legal system that assures tlie rights of plaintiffs to obtain justice 
and due process. And, crucially, the AWA vindicates the court’s right and ability to exercise its 
jurisdiction; it is not, in the first instance, about tlie government’s (or other plaintiffs’) power per se. 

For example, U.S. citizens detained without trial at Guantanamo asked Article III courts to use the Act 
in their attempts to obtain judicial review of their petitions for writs of habeas corpus. 

Wliile there is nothing inherently wrong with tlie AWA - and, indeed, much to celebrate about it - that 
does not mean the Act could not be misused here. Without further direction from Congress, courts 
applying the AW.As balancing of eqtiities might w^ell set too low a bar for the government to 
second-guess specific security features. This risk may present a good reason for legislation, but if 
Congi’ess does decide to legislate, it should create a statutory ttlternutiue to the AWA, rather than 
tinkering with what is otherwise a fundamental protection of judicial pow-ers embodied in the AWA - a 
key part of Judiciary Act of 1789. 

Indeed, if there is a problem with the AWA’s application in matters of security design, it is not the Act 
itself, which requires a weighing of equities, but that courts might not w'eigh the right equities, or 
weight them properly. Thus, even if one sides entirely with Apple, the Act, and the caselaw interpreting 
the Act, offer an excellent model for legislation. Specifically, such standards-based statutes can avoid 
the problem inherent in overly prescriptive, technologically specific legislation: because technological 
change will inevitably upset whatever balance Congress attempts to codify in statute. 'I'he Electronic 

’ United States v. Neu^ York Telcph-one Co., 434 U.S. 159, 173 (1977). 


Conimimications Pi ivacy Act of 1986, for example, has failed to protect Americans’ privacy simpl}^ 
because the plummeting cost of digital storage made it common to store documents in the “cloud” 
which ECPA failed to foresee, and thus failed to protect. 

We look forward to contributing to a measured consideration of these difficult questions. In the 
balance hang both our liberties and our security - both national and personal. 


® TechFreedom 

® International Center for Law & Economics 

# Niskanen Center 


Material submitted by the Honorable Doug Collins, a Representative in 
Congress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Committee on the Judi- 

3423 Piedmont NE 
Atlanta, GA 30305 

The Honorable Doug Collins 

1504 Longworth House Office Building 

Washington, DC 20515 

February 29, 2016 

Dear Congressman Collins, 

I am writing to you today to urge you to take action on the growing legal dispute between 
Apple and the Department of Justice, I am the co-founder and president of MotionMobs, a 
custom app development company with developers in your district that builds apps for local 
schools and companies. America needs the right tools and intelligence to fight and stop the 
threat of terrorism, but I am concerned that the FBI's approach will weaken Americans' security 
in the future. 

As an app developer on the Apple platform, I appreciate the built-in security and privacy that I 
can offer my customers who are building apps that work with private financial, health, and even 
student information. While it's tempting to believe that the FBI's request is simple and would 
only affect one phone used by a terrorist, that's simply not how digital security works. Once 
Apple makes the tools required to help the FBI hack that one phone, they will work on EVERY 
iPhone and it will be target for hackers around the world. And, it's clear that law enforcement 
around the country will also start lining up to use these tools regardless of whether it's a 
terrorism case or a case of unpaid taxes. Putting the genie back in the proverbial bottle is not a 
real option. 

What is even more concerning as an app developer is that the DOJ seems to think this is no big 
deal, and the precedent is set for all software developers, not just Apple. The FBI argued in 
their motion to the court that it's not an "undue burden" to force a "software company" to 
write software to comply with a legal order. This may be true for Apple, but for small 
companies like ours, or the clients we work with, that kind of burden could lead to 
bankruptcy. Most startups and small companies don't have excess programmers sitting idly by. 

Finally, there is a significant issue regarding the protection of my intellectual property. As I 
understand it, the government is asking the court to rule that software companies can be asked 
to modify their software to help apprehend a criminal. If the data from my modified software is 
used in court, I may be asked to defend my modifications, and explain how the data given is 
accurate. Moreover, defense attorneys may be able to demand a copy of my source code to be 
given to outside consultants ostensibly to validate my methodology. My source code is often 


the crown jewel of my business - handing it over to "consultants" risks theft or loss, and 
certainly means any security features will also be exposed. 

That is why I'm urging Congress to step in and look at real solutions that can work for law 
enforcement, the tech industry, and Americans. 


Taylor Peake Wyatt 
Co-Founder and President 



Th« Veic* el the tnnevetieA Eeeeemy 

March 1. 2016 

805 15th Street, NW. Sufte 708, Washiogton. D.C. 20005 
Telephone 202.650.5100 | Fax 202.650.51 18 | @TechNetUpdate 

The Honorable Bob Goodlattc The Honorable John Conyers 

Chairman Ranking Member 

House Judiciar> Commitiee House Judiciar> Committee 

Dear Chairman Goodlattc and Ranking Member Conyers. 

TechNet. the bipartisan network of innovation economx CEOs and senior executives, thanks > ou for 
holding toda\ s hcanng: “The Encixption Tightrope; Balancing Americans* Privacy and SecuritN 

Toda> 's hearing has been driven in no small part by the U S. government's decision to take the 
unprecedented step of tr> ing to force a leading American tcchnolog> company - Apple - to provide 
access to the encr\ptcd contents of an iPhone. Expanding the 227-ycar-old All Writs Act. to date used 
exclusively to require administrative support to the go\cmment. into a tool to require a private technology 
compan\’ to create new software and in clTcct undermine its existing sccurit> s> stems sets a disturbing 
precedent for obtaining access to iPhones and other American devices, It would also open the door to 
governments from around the world seeking the vcr> same type of access. *71118 would be a major step in 
the wrong direction, and given the ubiquity of available encrypted mobile applications, would provide 
limited useful data to government investigators. 

Our smartphones, and the other devices that we depend on. are essential parts of our lives. 'ThcN hold our 
most personal information, including our health and financial data. This information needs to be 
protected from those who would seek to compromise our privacy and sccurih . 

At TechNet. we have great respect for the job that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies do We 
fully understand that our nation faces grave threats, and that we must be vigilant in protecting our 

The challenge in this case is that creating a precedent that could force companies to eliminate security 
features from their products is counterproducti\c for both our nation's security and economic leadership. 
From a sccurit\ perspective, onee a \ulnerability is established, it could be exploited by others who do not 
share the FBI's good intentions. The rcsult: common transactions will become cas\ prc> for bad actors, 
and customers around the w orld could lose faith in the trustw orthiness of American products and choose 
alternatives that don't have the some vulnerabilities. 

However, the attention this particular cose has draw n can have a positive outcome if we use it to begin a 
national dialogue to chart a wa> fonvard cmi the complicated set of legal and technical issues now before 
this esteemed committee. At TechNet. we hope that today's hearing will serve as a catalyst for such a 


Linda Moore 
President & CEO 


Questions for the Record submitted to the Honorable James B. Comey, 
Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation 


dongrcss of the United States 

tiousc of Kcprcstntaciocs 


2138 Rav- ns Ho.- Off.i - 8ui ’ ' 

WASMNGtON, DC 206H ''/16 

March 31, 2016 

The Honorable James B. Comey 

Federal Bureau of Investigation 
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW 
Washington, DC 20535 

Dear Director Comey, 

The Committee on the Judiciary held a hearing on "The Encryption Tightrope; Balancing 
Americans’ Security and Privacy” on March 1, 2016 in room 2141 of the Rayburn House Office 
Building. Thank you for your testimony. 

Questions for the record have been submitted to the Committee within five legislative 
days of the hearing. The questions addressed to you arc attached. We will appreciate a full and 
complete response as they will be included in the official hearing record. 

Please submit your written answers by Thursday, .May 19, 2016 to Kelsey Williams at 
kcls cy. william sfh)mail.housc.uo v and Allen Jamerson at allen.iamcrs o n:fl; .gov or 
2138 Rayburn House OBicc Building, Washington, DC. 20515. If you have any further 
questions or concerns, please contact the Committee at 202-225-3951. 

Thank you again for your participation in the hearing. 

Hob Goodiattc 


Note: The Committee did not receive a response to the questions submitted to this witness 
at the time this hearing record was finalized and submitted for printing on August 5, 2016. 


The Honorable James B. Comey 
March 31, 2016 
Page 2 

Questions for the record from Chairman Bob Goodlatte CVA-OS): 

1 . When seeking a solution to the San Bernardino terrorist’s phone, did you consult with the 
NSA or any other agency to determine whether there was a way to override the auto- 
crasc feature? 

a. What other entities did you seek assistance from in trying to find a work-around? 

2. Now that you have reportedly found a solution, do you believe it represents an exploit 
that will soon be patched by Apple? 

a. Are you sharing the solution with state and locals? 

b. Are you using the solution on other iPhones in your possession? Will it work on 
phones other than just the iPhone 5c? 

c. How likely will it be that this solution will continue to work? 

3. What entity helped the FBI develop a solution? 

a. It was reported that an Israeli company assisted? Why was it that a foreign 
company was able to find a solution but the FBI or other American-based 
companies couldn’t? 

b. Arc you concerned that an exploit was developed by a company from a nation 
which has historically been known to have a sophisticated intelligence apparatus? 

c. If a company in a foreign nation developed this exploit, do you believe other 
countries also have developed similar exploits? What is the risk that an adversary 
nation has developed a similar exploit? 

d. Are you going to share with Apple the solution you have found that enables FBI 
to access stored content that was previously blocked due to the auto-erase 
function and passcode key? 

4. There has been quite a bit of debate about the government’s reliance on the All Writs Act 
to compel Apple to bypass the auto-erase functions on the phone. It has been 
characterized as an antiquated statute, dating back to 1789, that was never intended to 
empower the courts to require a third party to develop new technology. Has the FBI 
relied on the Act in the past to gain access to iPhones or other similar devices? Is the Act 
limited to circumstances in which Congress has already imposed a statutory duty on a 
third party to provide assistance? 

5. If the U.S. government is allowed to access encrypted devices, what’s to stop other 
governments from making similar demands of American tech companies or prevent cyber 
hackers and criminals from getting their hands on this technology? 


The Honorable James B. Comey 
March 31, 2016 
Page 3 


6. Some have argued that law enforcement does not need access to end-to-end encrypted 
technology since they can already access a wide variety of non-content metadata from 
providers and obtain content stored in the cloud. Why is it necessary that law 
enforcement, such as the FBI, also gain access to encrypted devices or apps? 

7. Why can’t the FBI simply compel a user to turn over their passcode to unlock an iPhone 
or other encrypted device? 

8. Would you say that a phone that is unlocked with a fingerprint or other biometrie feature 
could be unlocked without the assistance of the manufacturer or provider? If so, does 
that mean that only numeric passcodes are considered “testimonial” for purposes of the 
5th Amendment privilege against self-incrimination, but biometric authentication is not 
similarly protected? 

9. Do you have a sense from FBI engineers or cryptographers, or from your diseussions 
with others in the intelligence community, whether there arc any adequate, long-term 
solutions that will both respect consumer privacy and offer law enforcement access to 
communications when necessary to protect public safety? 

10. Do you believe that there are any privacy considerations in the San Bernardino case 
considering the user of the phone is now dead and the owner of the phone (the former 
employer) has consented? 

1 1 . Considering we are analyzing the larger encryption issue, are you aware whether any of 
the information that was the subject of the 0PM breach was encrypted? 



Response to Questions for the Reeord from Bruce Sewell, 

Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Apple, Inc. 

Responses to Questions for the Record 
“The Encryption Tightrope; Balancing Americans' Security and Privacy" 
Bruce Sewell, Senior Vice President and General Counsel 
Apple, Inc. 

Questions for the record from Chairman Bob Goodlatte fVA-061 

1. Now that it has been reported that the FBI has been able to access the phone of 
one of the San Bernardino terrorists, is Apple doing anything to ensure that this 
vulnerability is patched? 

Answer. The FBI has never presented evidence a vulnerability exists. To the 
extent one does exist, we are committed to finding it and fixing it. 

2. Was Apple previously aware that there was a vulnerability in the auto-erase 
function that would enable a work-around? 

Answer. No, and we have no information that there is a vulnerability in the 
auto-erase function. 

3. Have you continued to work with the FBI to develop alternative solutions to 
access the material on the subject’s iPhone? 

Answer: No. The FBI states that it was able to access the device without 
Apple’s assistance. 

4. Do you believe that FBI’s solution will work on newer iPhones or just the subject 
iPhone 5c? 

Answer: The FBI has never presented evidence a vulnerability exists. I 
believe it has been reported that the FBI says the tool does not work on the 
5s or the 6. If that is true, whatever vulnerability may have existed is now 
fixed. In any event, part of our software and product development processes 
is to always do our best to find and fix whatever vulnerabilities may exist. 

5. If Apple receives a search warrant for contents stored in the iCIoud, does it 
comply? Is the iCloud encrypted? 

Answer: Yes, if Apple receives a search warrant for contents stored in iCloud 
and we have responsive data, Apple will provide it. Yes, with the exception of 
email, content stored in iCloud is encrypted. 

5(a). If so, is it encrypted in such a way that Apple cannot access it? Does that 
mean it’s unsafe? 



Answer: Apple retains the key to decrypt iCloud content. Please see 
the response to Question 5(b], immediately below. 

5(b). If the iCloud is safe, despite the fact that Apple can access it, why can't 
the same be true for iPhones? 

Answer: Securing data that exists on servers in Apple's facilities is a 
very different challenge from securing data that exists on an iPhone or 
iPad in the possession of our customers. These devices are physically 
lost and stolen. In addition, customers use iCloud in different ways 
from how they use their devices, so in designing our products we take 
those differences into account. This is a question that we continually 
address as we strive to make our products both as secure and as 
usable as possible. 

6. Why did Apple change its operating system with the iOS 8 version in such a way 
that the encryption keys on the device are safeguarded by the passcode designated 
by the user? Presumably, it was to ensure that tbe phones cannot be hacked? 

Answer: Apple is always striving to provide the best security possible for 
customers while at the same time providing the highest level of usability. We 
take important steps to improve the security of our devices and services with 
every release. Since we know that customers lose devices or have them 
stolen, it was essential to protect the data on the device to the greatest extent 

6(a). How many phones operating on the iOS 7 or an earlier operating system 
were hacked? 

Answer: Apple does not have data tracking that type of information. 

6(b). How did Apple decrypt iPhones operating on the iOS 7 or an earlier 
operating system? Was this done remotely or in-house? 

Answer: In the past, using an in-house process, Apple was able to 
extract data that was not protected by passcode-protected encryption. 
This applies to iPhones running iOS 7 and earlier operating systems. 

6(b)(1). Was the technology you possessed to decrypt these phones 
ever compromised? 

Answer: The process Apple used to extract data from locked 
iPhones running iOS 7 or earlier operating systems was not, to 
our knowledge, compromised. 



7. In one of its motions, Apple argues that "once the [unlocking] process is created, 
it provides an avenue for criminals and foreign agents to access millions of iPhones." 
How would this happen? 

Answer. A special operating system created to weaken the security of one 
iPhone is applicable to all other iPhones. We continue to believe that creating 
and maintaining a persistent vulnerability would put all of our customers' 
data in harm’s way. 

8. Is it possible that there is content or other information on an iPhone, such as the 
one at issue in the San Bernardino investigation, that is only on the phone and 
nowhere else - it's not in the cloud, it doesn't reside with a telecommunications 
provider, it's only on the phone? 

Answer. Yes. 

8(a). Why should that information be walled off from the rule of law? Why 
should it be more protected than the papers or effects in someone's home? 

Answer. We do not believe the information resides outside the rule of 
law. We believe US laws can and should be interpreted and applied in 
recognition of the fact that if an encryption system is undermined, 
then it is undermined for everyone who uses that system. 

8(b). Doesn't the type of encryption employed on the iOS 8 and later 
operating systems render a search warrant useless to search the phone? 

Answer. Apple shares law enforcement’s goal of creating a safer world 
and therefore continues to provide law enforcement all the data we 
have. Apple does not have the technical ability to extract data from a 
locked iPhone running iOS 8 or later. 

9. In its motion, Apple repeatedly argues that Congress - and not the courts - should 
resolve this issue. Is it Apple's position that were Congress to enact a new law 
requiring unlocking or decrypting assistance, that Apple would comply with it? 

Answer: Apple does and will comply with the law. 

10. If Congress enacts specific legislation to require device manufacturers and app 
designers to decrypt or unlock their technologies, isn't this incentive for foreign 
manufacturers to market products with stronger encryption than U.S. products? 

And couldn't this drive U.S. consumers to those foreign products, thus creating an 
even greater barrier for U.S. law enforcement? 

Answer: Yes. 



11. Historically, how many All Writs Act orders has Apple complied with for an 
Apple device? 

Answer. Apple has complied with hundreds of All Writs Act orders to extract 

11 (a). Why is Apple now challenging an All Writs order in this case? 

Answer. Please see the response to Question 11(h), immediately 

11(b). Why is Apple also challenging an All Writs order in the Eastern 
District of New York for a phone that is using the iOS 7 operating system? 

Had Apple previously complied with All Writs orders for phones using the 
iOS 7 or earlier operating system? If so, what has changed that has caused 
Apple to reject this law as a legitimate means to for the government to obtain 
assistance with a search warrant? 

Answer. Yes, Apple had previously complied with All Writs orders for 
phones using iOS 7 or earlier operating systems. In the case you 
reference, it was the Magistrate Judge, not Apple, who questioned 
whether the All Writs Act provides the government with sufficient 
legal authority to access data stored on a device. The judge sought 
briefing and subsequently ruled that the All Writs Act does not 
provide such authority. 

12. The iPhone at issue in the San Bernardino case did not belong to Mr. Farook, 

Answer. Yes, it belonged to his employer - the San Bernardino County 

12(a). In fact, it belonged to his employer - the San Bernardino County 
government - and therefore Farook had no reasonable expectation of privacy 
in the phone. The county has consented to unlocking the phone. Why, at least 
in this instance, is that not sufficient for Apple? 

Answer. As discussed, Apple does not have the technical capability to 
unlock the phone. The government asked Apple to create a brand new 
operating system that would weaken the security design and 
protections of all iPhones so that the government could then unlock 
this particular phone. Apple does not believe that the All Writs Act, on 
which the government based its order, grants the government such 
authority. No court has ever authorized what the government sought. 



12(b]. Doesn't this raise larger questions about the use of iPhones for 
business purposes if the employee holds the key to unlocking the device and 
not the employer? Even outside the context of a governmental request, can 
an employer come to Apple to have them override the auto-erase functions? 

Answer: Employers cannot come to Apple to override device 
protections such as auto erase. Employers may elect to use or even 
require use of Mobile Device Management (MDM] software which 
allows them to remove a device passcode. Opting a phone into MDM 
requires the user of the device to unlock the device and enter the 
passcode a second time before installation of the software occurs, if 
MDM is not installed, it does not after the fact give the employer, 
Apple, or anyone else the ability to inspect or access data previously 
stored locally on the device. 

13. What, if any, accommodation is made for employers who own phones that have 
been distributed to their employees for business-only purposes? 

Answer: As we stated above, employers may use MDM software in 
connection with iOS which would allow them to reset a device's password. 
Employers may also register their ownership of a phone to allow them to 
request Apple disable on its servers the “Activation Lock" theft protection for 
an employer-owned device. 

14. Is there any instance of national security, terrorist attack, or major gang-related 
violence affecting our communities where you would offer your assistance in 
unlocking a single iPhone? In other words, if you were presented with a "ticking 
time-bomb" scenario, would you offer to produce the necessary software work- 
around giving law enforcement access? 

Answer: Under any scenario, even a "ticking time-bomb", Apple does not 
currently have the capability to extract data from a device that is protected 
by encryption that is keyed to a user passcode. We work hard every day to 
assist law enforcement because we share their goal of creating a safer world. 
Apple has a team of dedicated professionals that are on call 24 hours a day, 
365 days a year. Not a day goes by where someone on this team is not 
working with law enforcement. We know from our interactions with law 
enforcement officials that the information we provide is extremely useful in 
helping to prevent and solve crimes. 

15. Is Apple acquiescing to requests for access from the governments of other 
countries as a condition of doing business there? China? Russia? How does Apple 
comply with requests from foreign governments for access to content? 

Answer: Apple has not built a back door for any of our products. Apple has 
never shown any government any Apple source code beyond that which is 



available on our website or through open source. We comply with lawful 
requests from governments around the world where we do business 
whenever we are able to provide responsive information, as we do in the 
United States. As our content is stored in the United States, we require MLAT 
or Letters Rogatory to provide content in response to requests from third 

15(a}. It was recently reported that Blackberry had considered pulling out of 
Pakistan because the country requires "back doors.” If Apple is doing 
business in a country like Pakistan that requires encrypted communications 
to have "backdoor" access, can we not presume that you are acquiescing to 
those countries' demands? 

Answer: Apple has notbuilt a back door for any of our products. Apple 
has never shown any government any Apple source code beyond that 
which is available on our website or through open source. 

16. Are there any privacy considerations in this case considering the user of the 
phone is now dead and the owner of the phone (the former employer) has 

Answer: Apple opposition to the order in the San Bernardino case was in 
response to the government's attempt to vastly expand the scope of its 
authority under the All Writs Act. The privacy considerations are clear for all 
users: had the government prevailed in forcing Apple to weaken security for 
all iPhones, the private information that millions of users store on their 
devices would be at greater risk of theft from criminals, hackers, and others. 
Those subject to law enforcement inquiries represent far less than one-tenth 
of one percent of our hundreds of millions of users. But all of our users 
would be made more vulnerable if we were forced to build software to 
degrade security for any reason. 

17. Does the auto-erase functions exist on iPhones operating on iOS 7 operating 
systems or earlier? 

Answer: The auto-erase function exists on iOS 7 and earlier operating 

18. What percentage of Apple phones are being hacked by China? Other foreign 

Answer: Apple does not have data tracking that type of information. 

19. Following up on Judge Orenstein's holding in the Eastern District of New York, 
what evidence do you have that Congress had specifically excluded under CALEA the 



products that are currently manufactured by your company, such as iPhones and 

Answer. CALEA’s requirements apply to "telecommunications carriers," 
which are entities "engaged in the transmission or switching of wire or 
electronic communications as a common carrier for hire." 47 U.S.C. § 
1001[8)(A). Apple's role as manufacturer of the iPhone and as software 
developer of iOS does not fall within this definition. In addition, in at least 
some contexts, Apple is a provider of information services, expressly 
excluded from the definition of telecommunications carrier, id. § 
1001(8)(C}[i]. Under GALEA "information services" means the "offering of a 
capability for generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, 
retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via 
telecommunications," and "includes a service that permits a customer to 
retrieve stored information from, or file information for storage in, 
information storage facilities; electronic publishing; and electronic 
messaging services." id. § 1001(6). Apple is substantially engaged in 
developing and offering products that provide such capabilities. For 
example, Apple's iTunes service allows customers to purchase, store, and 
access music, movies, television shows, games and apps via an internet- 
connected Apple device, such as an iPhone or iPad. iTunes thus constitutes 
an "information service" under GALEA by providing "a capability for . . . 
acquiring, storing . . . [and] retrieving . . . information via 
telecommunications." id. Similarly, iMessage allows Apple customers 
(connected over the Internet) to communicate by messages sent and 
received via their iPhone, iPad, Mac, and iPod touch devices, and iCloud 
enables Apple's customers to store photos, calendars, contacts and other 
information in the cloud so that they can be accessed by any of the 
customers' devices. Gongress intended GALEA to cover telecommunications 
carriers, but exempt information service providers, "because the functions 
[they] provide^" are "information services." in the Matter of Gommc'ns 
Assistance for Law Enforcement Broadband Access and Servs., 19 F.G.G. Red. 
15676, 15706 (2004). Here, Apple provides substantial information services, 
and even where it is not providing information services, as when it 
manufactures devices and installs operating systems, it is still not a 
telecommunications carrier. 


Questions for the record from Representative Randy Forbes rVA-04) : 

1. Has Apple made any changes or modifications to its products that would make it 
easier for the Chinese government to get access to user communications? 

Answer: No. Apple has not built a back door for any of our products. Apple 
has never shown any government any Apple source code beyond that which 
is available on our website or through open source. 

2. Did Apple's decision to move iCloud data for Chinese-registered users to China 
result in making more data available to the Chinese government? 

Answer: No. Users' iCloud data stored in China is encrypted, and the 
decryption keys remain in the U.S. where they are subject to ECPA. The data 
Apple moved to China was moved to improve customer usability by reducing 
network latency. 

3. Will the tool that the FBI has asked you to build in San Bernardino work for other 
iPhone SCs? What about for newer phones? 

Answer: Had we built the new operating system as requested, we believe it 
would have worked for any iPhone 5c and, with some modification, for all iOS 

4. If Apple discovered that the government had a good way to successfully brute- 
force attack the phone, would Apple try to shut down whatever that method was? 

Answer: Whenever we learn of a vulnerability in our products that makes the 
private information of our users less secure, we fix it. To do anything else 
would be irresponsible. If we deliberately left that vulnerability unaddressed, 
we would be helping cyber-attackers in their constant and ever more 
sophisticated efforts to steal information. 


Questions for the record from Representative Blake Farenthold rTX-27) 
and Representative Suzan DelBene fWA-01 1 

1. Has Apple made any changes or modifications to its products that would make it 
easier for the Chinese government to get access to user communications? 

Answer: No. Apple has not built a back door for any of our products. Apple 
has never shown any government any Apple source code beyond that which 
is available on our website or through open source. 

2. Did Apple's decision to move iCloud data for Chinese-registered users to China 
result in making more data available to the Chinese government? 

Answer: No. Users' iCloud data stored in China is encrypted, and the 
decryption keys remain in the U.S. where they are subject to ECPA. The data 
Apple moved to China was moved to improve customer usability by reducing 
network latency. 

3. Will the tool that the FBI has asked you to build in San Bernardino work for other 
iPhone 5Cs? What about for newer phones? 

Answer: Had we built the new operating system as requested, we believe it 
would have worked for any iPhone 5c and, with some modification, for all iOS 

4. Is data stored In iCloud encrypted and was it also encrypted before the launch of 

Answer. Yes, with the exception of email, data stored in iCloud is encrypted, 
and those protections predate iOS 8. 

5. If Apple discovered that the government had a good way to successfully brute- 
force attack the phone, would Apple try to shut down whatever that method was? 

Answer: Whenever we learn of a vulnerability in our products that makes the 
private information of our users less secure, we fix it. If we deliberately left 
that vulnerability unaddressed, we would be helping cyber-attackers in their 
constant and ever more sophisticated efforts to steal information. 

6. Can you explain in more detail the arguments you are making in the San 
Bernardino matter? 

Answer: Our argument in that specific case was that the All Writs Act, first 
enacted in 1789 and on which the government based its entire case, simply 
does not allow the government to force Apple to create an entirely new 



operating system to be loaded on to an iPhone for the purpose of weakening 
security measures. No court has ever authorized what the government 
sought, and no law supports such sweeping authority. This was a novel effort 
to dramatically expand the scope of the All Writs Act. 

In addition, the government's assertion that the California case was only 
about one phone was false. If the government had prevailed in the case, we 
know that law enforcement agencies across the country and arguably the 
world would have sought the same outcome. In addition, once an operating 
system for one phone is created, it would remain a persistent vulnerability 
for criminals and hackers to use to attack all other iPhones. 



Questions for the record from Representative Doug Collins fGA-09) 

1. This debate has focused on Apple, but it is important to remember this issue 
affects not only Apple, but software and technology companies-large and small- 
across the country, including back home in Georgia. 

The President of MotionMobs, an app development company in Georgia, states the 
problem clearly. While the FBI's request is undoubtedly burdensome for Apple, it is 
also precedent setting. And for a small company like MotionMobs, the kind of 
burden posed by the FBI' s request "could lead to bankruptcy." The FBI request also 
poses intellectual property concerns. It is critical that we take these points into 

Mr. Sewell, I understand this is an important issue for you, but I'm equally 
concerned about the smaller companies who don't have your resources. The Justice 
Department claims that any software company shouid be able to make changes to 
their code to allow access to law enforcement. Is that your understanding as well? 

Answer. The burden of creating and maintaining reductions in security is one 
of the critical aspects of this ongoing conversation. Certainly, had the court 
accepted the government’s views on the scope of the All Writs Act, then the 
government could force any company, regardless of size, to bear the burden 
of creating new software tools to facilitate access. The inevitable outcome 
would be one of less innovation and increased litigation, with increased risk 
to law-abiding customers of any U.S. company's products. 

And if they make the change, can defense attorneys force them to appear to explain 
the changes, or require outside consultants to review their code? 

Answer. In the case you describe, we believe that defense attorneys would 
have the legal right to both examine the methods used to defeat the security 
in the code and to force company personnel to appear in court. This 
courtroom engagement aione represents a significant expense of resources 
for any business, but it would likely be particularly onerous for small entities 
that may not have in-house legal resources on which to rely. 

Does that create IP protection risks? Security risks? 

Answer. Yes, the potential security vulnerabilities created by the 
government’s proposed approach would pose huge risks to consumers by 
making their health information, banking records, location, and other 
information more accessible to criminals. There are also risks to intellectual 
property specifically. Businesses rely on products implementing technical 
measures such as encryption to ensure the integrity and security of the data 
they hold and transmit. This data often includes protected intellectual 



property (IP) and other sensitive information about consumers and 
businesses across every sector of the economy, including the government 
itself. A requirement that those security measures be disclosed to defense 
attorneys and any outside consultants hired by the defense or the courts 
represent additional vectors for a security breach. 

Similarly, the sharing of code to validate the origin of the data presents real 
conundrums for companies that rely on trade secrets, rather than patents, for 
IP protection. By disclosing the very specific methodologies used to collect, 
analyze, and refine the data, software companies could theoretically put the 
entire value of their product up for scrutiny by an endless stream of defense 
and court consultants. 



Response to Questions for the Reeord from Susan Landau, Ph.D., 
Professor of Cyberseeurity Policy, Worcester Polytechnic Institute 

Questions for the record from Chairman Bob Goodlatte (VA-06) 
Responses from Susan Landau, Worcester Polytechnic Institute 

1. You suggest in your testimony that "law enforcement must develop the 
capability for conducting such investigations themselves" and that Congress 
should provide appropriately funding for that endeavor. So, you do not object 
to the FBI's recently announced solution that enables access to the San 
Bernardino terrorist's phone? 

Based on what's been publicly disclosed, such a solution is appropriate. There 
should also be two other aspects to this solution: a policy defining the process to 
determine when federal investigators should aid state and local law enforcement, 
who are unable to deploy sufficient resources to conduct such investigations (see 
response to question 13a) and policies to govern release of information about 
vulnerabilities to the manufacturers [see response to question 2). 

2. At least one commentator has suggested that the FBI should now share its 
solution with Apple so that Apple can patch that particular vulnerability. Isn't 
that counterintuitive to your proposed solution to enable FBI to hack into 
phones without Apple's help. Doesn't it undermine FBI's efforts to share the 
solution with Apple who will only work to take away FBI's access to patching 
the vulnerability? 

Two fundamental security needs are in conflict. One is the FBI’s ability to examine 
phone contents during the course of an investigation: the other the ability of the 
phones' owners to secure data on the phones, which is crucial not just for the 
private information present on phones (such as photos, fitness information, and the 
like), but also because smartphones are increasingly functioning as security devices 
(that is, being used as authenticators). 

Such conflicting security requirements are hardly new. For decades NSA’s Signals 
Intelligence and information Assurance Directorates had similar conflicts on 
precisely the issue of revealing security vulnerabilities in communications 
infrastructure, in NSA's case, resolutions partially depend on the extent of US 
reliance on the communications technology discovered to have a security flaw (the 
Vulnerabilities Equities Process is described at: 

we-disclose-cyber-yulnerabiHtie.s). Because the vast majority of FBi investigations 
occur in the US, vulnerabilities used by the Bureau are likely to also be present in 
devices used by many Americans. Sharing the vulnerability with the manufacturer 
enables faster patching of all phones with that vulnerability, and is important given 
the cybersecurity risks currently faced by the U.S. 


Were the FBI to share the vulnerability information with Apple, there would be a 
window of opportunity before the vulnerability was actually patched. During that 
time, the FBI could continue to use the vulnerability on other phones. 

3. Would you say that the work-around solution that FBI has founds is safe in 
the hands of the FBI? 

It appears thatthe FBI has not learned the details of how the vulnerability works, so 
yes it is (the Bureau can’t reveal information it doesn't know). The fact that the 
vulnerability exists, however, means that others, including signals intelligence 
organizations of nation states and organized crime, will look for it, and, with time, 
undoubtedly find it. This could occur through discovery, or through theft or 

4. Why does it matter whether the FBI possesses the internal capabilities to 
decrypt a device or communication or the provider possesses it? Wouldn’t it 
he equally vulnerable to cyber hackers and criminals or enemy nations? 

By requesting that Apple develop third-party access to a secured device, the FBI was 
effectively asking to create a weakness in the security system protecting iPhone 5cs. 
As we learned during the House [udiciary Committee testimony on March 1, had this 
capability been developed, it would have been frequently used by law enforcement 
agents around the country. Such routine use would substantively increase the risk 
that the iPhone security system would be subverted through rogue requests 
submitted to Apple. (Note that I am not suggesting that law enforcement would be 
submitting rogue requests. My concern is that other groups, including organized 
crime and other nations, would subvert the necessarily routine process needed to 
service the thousands of requests that would come in annually.) The capabilities 
Apple would have to develop would have increased the risk of insider attack as well 
as theft of the code from the company. 

Were Apple to have developed such software, all iPhone 5cs would have been at risk 
(and perhaps other iPhones as well; that depends on platform-specific architecture). 
In addition, were Apple to have developed the software to decrypt a device or 
communication, that capability would be demanded by law enforcement of other 
nations, including those that fail to respect the rule of law. 

5. What recourse does an employer have to get information from either a 
phone it owns but is used by an employee or a phone owned by an employee 
for work purposes, especially if all the employee has to do is not backup the 

Mobile Device Management systems (MDMs) can be implemented on work phones 
used by an employee and personal phones used by an employee for work-related 
tasks. Many vendors support MDM and many enterprises configure it, but it is not 
automatic; it must be deliberately configured. Use of an MDM arrangement is 


elective on the part of the employer, but not all employers implement the system 
sufficiently well for it to work completely. 

There are many types of MDMs offered by a variety of providers, and they function 
differently. Furthermore, contracts between the employer and user can change, and 
even a single provider's MDM arrangement can change in the future. Thus it is 
impossible to give a definitive answer to this question. 

A partial answer is supplied by the fact that MDMs typically enable the phone's 
owner to wipe the phone, which means that a non-compliant employee (e.g., an 
employee who is not backing up their phone) risks losing all the data on their phone, 
including personal information stored on the device. This provides a strong 
incentive for backing up the phone according to the employer's requirements. 

6. You have discussed how the Apple iPhone uses hardware encryption 
embedded on a physical chip. One recent story on Google also suggested that 
it is reviewing hardware-hased encryption stored on individual chips. In 
layman’s terms, can you explain the difference between hardware encryption 
and software encryption? 

For the purpose of this question, "hardware encryption" means the encryption in an 
isolated piece of hardware (typically a chip). The encryption process and all its data 
are kept within what NSA calls a “cryptographic boundary" that prevents a 
compromise of the surrounding computer environment, particularly the operating 
system, from extracting data from the cryptographic processor by any means other 
than those the processor provides. 

The reason that hardware encryption is viewed as potentially more secure than a 
software solution is that you can reprogram software, but swapping out the 
hardware is more difficult. And in hardware solutions, part of the key resides in 
hardware, meaning it cannot be retrieved by software. 

7. In your testimony, you suggested that a locked phone can simply he brought 
into a Wi-Fi network and as long as the passcode and iTunes password match 
and the phone is charging, then the contents of the phone will sync to the 
iCloud. Then law enforcement can simply issue a search warrant for the 
what’s in the cloud. 

a. Why is the cloud so much more optimal a place for law enforcement to seek 
communications and associated data? 

Data on the iCloud is encrypted by Apple, which holds the decryption key. (While 
users could encrypt data before saving it in the iCloud, there is no default option to 
do so — and no way to do it for standard iOS applications.) This means that Apple 
has the capability to access the data in unencrypted form, and thus so can law 
enforcement under court order. 


b. Is it so much more secure than the phone that it can be both encrypted and 
accessible at the same time? 

As a security measure, the iCloud data is encrypted. However, as noted, the iCloud 
encryption keys are held by Apple. This means that the data is accessible to Apple in 
unencrypted form. 

If so, why isn’t the technology used to run the cloud sufficient to protect the 

There is a lot of information on phones that is not, and should not, be shared. The 
usual issue of concern is personal information — photos, private communications, 
etc. But from a security vantage point, the most important information on a phone is 
authentication information. Phones are being used to authenticate users to their 
online accounts of various sorts: email, financial, etc. Such authentication 
information should not leave the device except when authenticating the user to the 
account. Any requirement that all data on the phones be shared with a cloud 
provider would eliminate the ability of phones to serve as secure authenticators. 

c. Wbat about a remote-erase command? Wouldn't that kick in as soon as the 
phone is connected to Wi-Fi and charging? 

That command could be disabled on the iCloud end on a per-user basis. This isn't 
that hard, since it is already possible to do so on a per-phone option. 

8. If the forensics community already possesses solutions to accessing the data 
on an encrypted iPhone, doesn’t that mean that even the end-to-end 
encryption can be circumvented? 

Yes, there are many ways that the end-to-end encryption can be circumvented. One 
way can be because the actual system providing end-to-end encryption has a 
security flaw that thus enables wiretapping clear text after all. A second way is if 
wiretapping capability is downloaded on the phone. Even though the conversation 
itself is encrypted end-to-end, it is available at the phone in unencrypted form. Thus 
a wiretap on the phone can capture the communications content. Finally, if one has 
physical possession of the device, it is possible to download a wiretap onto the 

It is possible to download a wiretap onto a device through security flaws in either 
other applications on the phone or the phone’s operating system; see my paper with 
Steven Bellovin, Matt Blaze, and Sandy Clark, "Lawful Hacking: Using Existing 
Vulnerabilities for Wiretapping on the Internet" 

&context=nitip . The key issue is that all complex systems, even ones architected to 


be secure, contain vulnerabilities. As we all know, hackers, not Apple, ultimately 
enabled the unlocking of Farook’s phone. 

And if that’s the case, then why should the government look to hackers instead 
of Apple to unlock the phone? 

Hackers and Apple have very different motivations. Hackers who sell vulnerabilities 
are interested in prolonging the use of a vulnerability, while Apple’s interest is in 
patching the security flaw as quickly as possible. We want to encourage that 
behavior in Apple — rather than encouraging the company to make poorly secured 
devices, which would leave the phone open to criminal hackers and spies. 

9. If Congress enacts specific legislation to require device manufacturers and 
app designers to decrypt and unlock their technologies, isn’t this incentive for 
foreign manufacturers to market products with stronger encryption than U.S. 
products? And couldn’t this drive U.S. consumers to those foreign products, 
thus creating an even greater harrier for U.S. law enforcement? 

Yes, and this is a strong argument that such legislation would harm U.S. 
manufacturers. It would also decrease the ability of U.S. law enforcement to get the 

This aspect of the problem is a replay of the situation in the 1990s and is part of the 
reason for the loosened export controls that came into play in 2000. Note that it will 
be impossible to regulate software deployment; we are not going to have US 
Customs check which apps are on a phone as people enter the United States. 

We could regulate hardware by requiring that hardware encryption enable third- 
party access. But one, there is no simple solution from a technical vantage point 
(see some of the problems with split keys in response to question 11). And more 
importantly, weakening hardware security through requiring an access point means 
that smartphones cannot be trusted as secure authenticators. This would severely 
limit strong security solutions, including those used by the US federal government. 

10. Even though the FBI has now been successful in bypassing the auto-erase 
functions of Farook’s iPhone, that does not mean that all of the information 
stored on the phone will automatically become available to them, correct? 
Encrypted apps on the phone will still have to be separately accessed? 

It depends on how the apps have been designed and whether logging into the phone 
also logs into the app, or whether a separate login is needed for the application. 

11. The Director of the NSA has called for the use of "split keys" as a potential 
solution. Could you describe in layman’s terms what is meant by "split keys" 
and whether such an option is workable in your opinion? 


There are many versions of "split keys," but basically they are solutions in which the 
encryption key is split in a number of parts, say n, and some portion of them, m — 
where m can be smaller than n — are needed to recover the encrypted information 
(examples are 2or 3 split keys out of a possible 3; 2, 3, or 4 out of a possible 4; 2, 3, 4, 
or 5 out of possible 5: etc.). 

There are serious problems with such a solution. A solution with few keyholders — a 
half dozen governments and as many companies — suffers from the "trust" issue; 
why should one government trust a system in which other governments, but not 
themselves, hold the keys. But if there are many keyholders — hundreds of 
governments, thousands of companies — it becomes impossible to secure the keys. 

In other words, the split-key solution sounds good in theory, but collapses as soon 
as one begins to examine the details of how it would actually work in practice. 

12. Is it possible for a bad actor to modify encryption or gain access to 
encryption keys? 

Yes. There are many examples of this. The most recent — and very serious — one was 
a compromise of the Juniper VPN, which was done by replacing a parameter that 
generates random key bits. This vulnerability allowed attackers to monitor VPN 
traffic. See "On the Juniper backdoor" by Matt Green, 

http ://bl og.cryptographyengineei'ing.con'i/2015/ 12/ on-jiJtiiper-backdoor.html. for 
details on the attack. 

13. You have been critical of solutions that involved updating CALEA because 
doing so, you argue, would only serve to increase security vulnerabilities. If 
we rely solely on the FBI's ability to create ad hoc solutions to surveillance or 
access problems, are we not also ensuring that law enforcement is always 
playing catch-up with criminals and national security threats when time is of 
the essence? 

As we understand all too well, our society has become remarkably dependent on an 
insecure electronic communications infrastructure for both the control of critical 
infrastructure and for conducting business. The latter means not just selling items 
on eBay, but managing a globalized industrial manufacturing base, just-in-time 
inventory, remote work, etc. This is the context for the Apple/FBI iPhone case, and 
for the larger discussion of investigations involving secured electronic 
communications and devices. 

Thus the answer to the question is both yes and no. The FBI needs to develop an 
investigative center with agents with a deep technical understanding of modern 
telecommunications technologies which will include capabilities of understanding 
not only where technology is and will be in six months, but where it may be in two 
to five years. Sometimes the FBi will be ahead of criminals and national-security 
threats, but, as the NSA well knows, it cannot always be ahead. Sometimes it will 


have to play catch up. One of the important advantages of our highly interconnected 
electronic world is that even if playing catch up in decrypting texts or opening 
devices, the FBI will have a wealth of other electronic trails to follow as well. 

a. If the FBI can’t stay ahead of encryption technology, how do you suggest 
state and locals have the capability to do so? 

State and local investigators already lack the technical expertise to investigate the 
multiple different types of cellphones, and this will only get worse with time and 
increasing complexity. Given the myriad number of communications technologies 
and the rapid rate of their innovation, it makes sense to fund a central source for 
solutions, and to develop a policy that determines the criteria for sharing those 
solutions. It will not be possible to develop solutions for all devices and all 
applications, but making choices about which cases to pursue and what resources to 
devote to them has always been part of law enforcement's task. 

Congress should consider what the appropriate policy mechanism is for 
determining when to share electronic surveillance technologies; such decisions 
should not be made by the organization that actually does the work. 

14. To pose a hypothetical; What if terrorists are currently planning a 9/11- 
like attack and storing their plans on encrypted phones? If any of the those 
phones were to he captured either before or after an attack, do you believe 
that the manufacturer of those phones should ever have a legal duty to 
provide the government access to content and metadata stored on the 

This hypothetical needs to take into account the various risks facing the US. So the 
issue is whether it is possible to provide such a capability without simultaneously 
creating serious holes that others can exploit. 

Up until now the capabilities for serious cyberattacks have been limited to nations 
that have motivations not to attack the US in this way. But the situation is changing, 
and increasingly other nations have developed greater capabilities for cyberattack. 
With that change, the need to prevent creating serious holes that others can exploit 

15. Isn't preventing the United States government from lawfully accessing 
encrypted communications pursuant to a court order or search warrant based 
on probable cause fundamentally different than turning over the same 
information to hostile regimes or those foreign governments that do not 
respect the rule of law? 


Yes, but this phrasing of the question doesn’t adequately capture the issues faced by 
phone manufacturers. While U.S. government access pursuant to a court order is 
different legally from requirements by hostile regimes or foreign governments that 
do not respect the rule of law to turn over the same information, its practical 
consequences are the same. It is much easier for a vendor to say "no” to a 
totalitarian government if the vendor isn't capable of complying than if they have 
the capability but do not want to exercise it on that government's behalf. 


Response to Questions for the Record from Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., 
District Attorney, New York County 

Hoiiste Judiciary Committee 

Response to Questions for the Record from Chairman Goodlatte 
Washington. D.C. 

Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., District Attorney, New York C'ounty, New V ork 

Question I; 

Now that the FBI has found a solution to unlocking the San Bernardino terrorist's 
iPhone, have you asked the FBI to share their solution with your office? 

Response to Question 1 : 


Question 2; 

Are you aware w hether the solution FBI has found would assist in your ow n 
investigations and backlog of phones to search? 

Response to Question 2 : 

The lawful method employed by the FBI to open Syed Farook’s iPhone reportedly works 
on only the particular model and operating system on that phone Moreover, Apple could 
alter the operating system so that the FBI's solution would no longer work Finally, tools 
of the kind used to open that phone cost far more than most local agencies can afford. 

Most local police and prosecutors offices do not have in-house forensics labs Many state 
and local law enforcement agencies would be required to send each device to an outside 
company for forensic analysis and decryption 

Question 3; 

Are you also seeking outside assistance in unlocking the phones without Apple's 

Response to Question 3 



Question 4: 

How many cases on average do you experience per year where encryption or locked 
phones prevent your office from accessing necessary investigative information that 
is likely to yield evidentiary value in solving a crime? What is your oldest case that 
is now being blocked due to an inability to access content on locked iPhones? 

Response to Question 4 : 

We have been working on this issue since September of 2014 when Apple and Google 
adopted default device encryption for smartphones. We released a report on Smartphone 
Encryption and Public Safety in November of last year. As of that paper’s release, we had 
1 1 1 Apple devices that were completely inaccessible. The number of inaccessible phones 
has risen to approximately 250 devices, out of a total of 853 phones seized by my 
Qffice’s Cyber Lab between Qctober 2014 and April 2016. Note that these 250 devices 
are only those obtained by my Qffice’s Cyber Lab in Manhattan; it does not include the 
number of inaccessible devices seized by the New York City Police Department, or by 
the District Attorney’s Qffices of the four other boroughs in New York City. 

These 250 devices arise from a wide variety of cases, including murder, sex crimes, child 
abuse, and complex financial crimes. 

Question 5: 

What is the effect if Congress were to make a determination that under no 
circumstances can the government require access or even the mere option to use its 
own technology to decrypt devices that are previously secured with a passcode or 

Response to Question 5 : 

The impact would be felt largely at the state and local level, where 95 percent of criminal 
prosecutions are handled every year. Because many individuals - including criminals - 
now live a large part of their lives on smartphones, much critical evidence of crime 
resides on smartphones, including messages, photos, videos, calendars, and address 
books. Without smartphone evidence, certain cases will have to be dismissed because 
prosecutors will not be able to proceed to trial due to a lack of sufficient evidence. In 
some cases, victims will be waiting for a measure of closure that may never come, and 
defendants will be free to reoffend. In other cases, prosecutors may be able to obtain a 
plea to a lesser charge than the top count charged, because without the smartphone 
evidence, prosecutors will not be able to make the case for the top charge. It is not our 
position that default device encryption makes it impossible to bring any charges against 
any defendants. It does pose a substantial impediment to investigating thoroughly and 
completely. Plainly said, it affects the process of investigation, exoneration, and 



Question 6: 

In your discussions with other DAs around the country concerning their challenges 
faced by encryption, have you noticed whether there is any particular crime that 
seems to be hindered more by encryption than others? For instance, are you 
noticing gangs using encryption over those exploiting children, or vice-versa? 

Response to Question 6 : 

Affected cases run the gamut from violent crimes such as homicide, to cybercrime and 
identity theft. This is a breakdown of crime categories corresponding to inaccessible 
Apple devices received by the Manhattan District Attorney’s Qffice’s Cyber Lab from 
Qctober 2014 to March 2016. 

Warrant-Proof lOS Devices by 
Crime Type 

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•AsMvn/HuOtKry/mtfgU'V ■ HoawiOg/AttetivCtd Murdrt 

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In a series of op-eds and in congressional testimony, we have told a number of stories 
from across the country - like that of Brittney Mills in Baton Rouge, and Ray Qwens in 
Evanston - whose killers remain on the loose. 

Question 7; 

Apple has argued publicly that it does not have capability to assist the government 
with iQS 8 encryption. However, in the Eastern District of New York, Apple is 
currently contesting an order issued under the “All Writs Act” to assist law 
enforcement with a cell phone that has iQS 7 encryption, which Apple has the 
capability to do. If Apple is no longer willing to assist law enforcement when it has 
the capability to do so, how cooperative can they possibly be when discussing iQS 8, 
iQS 9, or future operating systems? 



Response to Question 7 : 

This is why our office supports legislative action to require their cooperation when 
compelled by a court to do so. 

Question 8; 

You have pointed out that Apple and Google software runs nearly 97 percent of the 
world’s smartphones. These are American-based companies. Have you encountered 
phones with software other than that of Apple and Google that happened to be 
encrypted, and if so, do you have any recourse to unlocking or decrypting those 

Response to Question 8 : 

No, all phones in cases currently being prosecuted by my Qffice are running on either the 
iQS or Android operating systems. 

Question 9: 

Are you participating in the FBI-run National Domestic Communications 
Assistance Center (NDCAC)? Is the NDCAC reviewing any technological solutions 
to assist law enforcement in gaining access to encrypted communications? 

Response to Question 9 : 

Yes to both questions. 

Question 10; 

Is it realistic for state and locals to stay in front of technological solutions developed 
by companies such as Apple in order to remain able to lawfully access necessary 

Response to Question 10 : 

No, we simply do not have the resources. There is a deeply worrisome, inversely 
proportional relationship: The volume of encrypted devices are at the highest level for 
state and local enforcement agencies, where resources are at the lowest level. 

Question II: 

Do you ever obtain technical assistance from the FBI in accessing communications 
on phones or computers that you have seized? Are there ever any legal or resource 
restrictions in preventing you from receiving the necessary technical assistance from 



the FBI, particularly any that Congress might be able to solve with legislation or 
additional funding for the Bureau? 

Response to Question 1 1 : 

The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office has its own High Technical Assistance Unit 
and performs a wide variety of forensics across multiple device types for our 
investigations and cases. We have received and continue to receive technical assistance 
from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. We are not aware of any restrictions imposed 
by New York law that would prevent the FBI from sharing data with us, although there 
may be such restrictions imposed by federal law, and the costs of such sharing may, 
depending on the circumstances, be substantial. Furthermore, if the FBI were to provide 
technical assistance to us, and we were to rely on that assistance in a proceeding, FBI 
agents might be called upon to testify about the techniques or methods. This might be 
costly to the FBI and law enforcement generally. 

Question 12; 

III your law enforcement career, how would you rank this issue of encryption in 
terms of complicating investigations? 

Response to Question 12 : 

Apple’s introduction of a product that is beyond the reach of a search warrant into the 
stream of commerce - and marketing that product as warrant-proof - is entirely 
unprecedented. One of the largest companies in the world intentionally and explicitly 
frustrating its own ability to comply with court orders is entirely unprecedented. 

Question 13: 

What are some of the solutions that you are proposing, and do you foresee 
challenges in implementing them? 

Response to Question 1 3 : 

We believe federal legislation is the only viable solution. State and local law enforcement 
does not have the resources of the FBI, and cannot afford to litigate these case by case, 
and rely on expensive lawful hacking solutions. 

My Qffice — in consultation with cryptologists, technologists and law enforcement 
partners — has proposed a solution that we believe is both technologically and politically 
feasible: Keep the operating systems of smartphones encrypted, but still answerable to 
locally issued search warrants - just as they were until very recently. This can be 
achieved by a federal statute providing that any smartphone made or sold in the United 
States must be able to be unlocked — not by the government, but by the designer of the 
phone’s operating system — when the company is served with a valid search warrant. 



Our solution, as set forth in our November 20 1 5 Report , is that these companies make 
their smartphones amenable to search warrants. We want Apple to offer the same strong 
encryption that it employed without any documented security problems before iOS 8. 
Previous mobile operating systems allowed the company to access data on a seized 
device with a valid court order. Apple has never explained why the prior systems lacked 
security or were vulnerable to hackers, and thus, needed to be changed. 

Question 14: 

When considering strong encryption without a “key” versus strong encryption with 
a “key,” is it really an either/or proposition? 

Response to Question 14 : 

Neither our proposed solution, nor any pending legislation we support, proposes a 
government-held key. 

Question 15: 

Director Comey has said that the FBI is engaging the private sector in discussions 
about how to best deal with the “going dark” problem. Are you having similar 
discussions with tech companies? How are those discussions going? Which major 
service providers are constructively working with you on this issue? Which ones are 

Response to Question IS : 

Neither our Office, nor any state or local law enforcement agency of which we are aware, 
received any prior warning about Apple’s policy change. We read it on the company’s 
website, which stated: “Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and 
therefore cannot access this data. So it’s not technically feasible for us to respond to 
government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession 
running iQS 8.” 

Qn March 19, 2015, 1, along with two members of my Qffice, two representatives from 
the United States Secret Service, and two representatives from the Alabama Qffice of 
Prosecution Services, participated in separate meetings with senior Apple and Google 
executives at their respective headquarters in California to discuss this more. 

Qn March 3 1 , 20 1 5, and April 1 , 20 1 5, 1 sent letters to Apple and Google, respectively, 
setting forth questions that arose from our meetings with them. 1 have attached a copy of 
both my letters. (Copies of the letters were also attached as exhibits to my written 
testimony before your Committee.) I had hoped that the letters would foster a dialogue, 
but neither company has responded. 



Question 16: 

Are you aware of providers acquiescing to requests for access from the governments 
of other countries as a condition of doing business there? 

Response to Question 16 : 

No. However, Apple’s Reports on Government Information Requests - which are 
released every six months - show that it has complied with orders from foreign 
governments and law enforcement agencies. 

It is our understanding that if a foreign nation’s government wanted information from an 
American company, it also would have to go through lawful processes in the U.S., either 
pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty or a letter rogatory. If the foreign 
government used the MLAT process, the executive branch of the federal government 
would decide whether, in its discretion, the foreign government’s request was proper. If 
the foreign government used a letter rogatory, a federal court would make that 
determination In either case, the request could be refused if the information was sought 
for use in a proceeding that would violate human rights. 

Question 17: 

Don’t your investigators use encryption? How do you reconcile the need for your 
investigators to have access to the strongest of encryption with the need for the 
general public to have access to the same strong encryption? 

Response to Question 1 7 : 

We want Apple to offer the same strong encryption that it employed without any 
documented security problems before iQS 8. Previous mobile operating systems allowed 
the company to access data on a seized device with a valid court order. Apple has never 
explained why the prior systems lacked security or were vulnerable to hackers, and thus, 
needed to be changed. 

Question 18: 

Under what circumstances can the government compel a person to provide access to 
their cell phone? Is there a difference between whether a person uses a passcode 
(such as a four digit number) or biometrics (such as a fingerprint) to “lock” their 
cell phone? 

Response to Question 18 : 

Case law holds almost universally that a defendant cannot be compelled (by, e.g., a grand 
jury subpoena or order of the court) to provide the government with her or his passcode. 



because such compulsion would violate the defendant’s Fifth Amendment right against 
self-incrimination. ' There are two potential exceptions to this rule. 

First , it is an open question whether, instead of being compelled to provide the 
government with a passcode, the defendant might be compelled to unlock her or his 
phone using the passcode. There have been no cases considering this precise question, 
and although a court might conclude that it is no different from the situation in which a 
defendant is compelled to provide the government with the passcode, it might also 
determine that the situations are somewhat different.^ 

Second , if the existence of evidence on the phone is a foregone conclusion, then the 
defendant may have no Fifth Amendment privilege with respect to the contents of the 
phone, and thus may be compelled to provide the government with the passcode.^ It 
would be difficult in most circumstances, however, for the government to establish with 
the requisite degree of certainty the existence of evidence in a phone that would clear the 
“foregone conclusion” hurdle. ■* 

In any event, even if the government could lawfully compel a defendant to disclose her or 
his passcode - or to open her or his phone using the passcode - there is a substantial 

> Tlic Fifth AmcndiiKnt pro\ idcs lluit "(nlo person . . . stall be compelled in any crimiivil case to be 
a witness against himscir." U.S. Const., amend. V. The amendment's prohibition against sclf- 
iiKriminaiion luis been ■ incoqxtraled " so Itat it applies to stale criminal proceedings, as well as federal. See 
Malloy V. Hogan. .'178 U.S. 1. 6 (1%4); (Iriffm v. California. 380 U.S. 609. 615 (1965). TIk cases 
addressing llic question whether a defendant may be compelled to provide her or his passcode to the 

go\ ermnent. and liolding ttat such compulsion would violate the Fiftli Amendment include: In re Grand 
.lury Subpoena Duces Tecum. 670 F..3d 1335. 1346 (1 1’*’ Cir. 2012); U.S. v. Kirschner. 823 F. Supp. 2d 665, 
668 (E.D. Mich. 2010); SEC v. Huang. No. 15-269 (E.D.Pa.) (Sept. 2.3. 2015) (slip op. at 4-5); 
Commonwealth v. Haust. 89 Va. Cir. 267. 270-7 1 (Circuit Ct. of tlic City of Virginia Beach) (Oct. 28. 


2 Professor Orin Kerr has suggested ttat beciiusc it is (or may. in mam cases be) a "foregone 
conclusion" ttat a person know s tta passcode to Iter or liis ow n smartplionc. it would not violate the Fifth 
Amendment to compel a plionc ow ncr to use her or his passcode to open tlic plionc. See Kerr, "Apple's 
Dangerous Game." The Washington Post. September 19. 2014 

(hll DS://w w w w ashiiiElonpost com/new s/s olokh-coiiSDinics l\\ d/201 4AI9/ 19/aDplcs-daimcrous-uanic/) 

(citing /n re Boucher. 2009 WL 424718 (D. Vt. Feb. 19, 2009)). Tliis may be correct, altliough it tas not 
been tested in any case. Boucher suggests ttat if the content of the smart plione is know n (a "foregone 
conclusion "). tlicn requiring tlic passcode may not implicate tlic Fiftli Amendment; it docs not say ttat a 
person's know ledge of her or liis passcode would satisfy tlic foregone conclusion rcquircnicni. 

> See. eg.. People v. 8 NY.3d 389. .395 (N.Y. 2007); In re Grand Jury Subpoena Duces 
Tecum. 670 F.3d 1.335. 1346 (1 1'*' Cir. 2012); In re Boucher. 2009 WL 424718 at *3; In re 841 F. 
Supp.2d 12.32. 1237 (D. Colo. 2012). 

'■ Professor Kerr lias also explored the argument ttat compelling a person to provide her or his 
passw ord may not violate the Fifth Amcndnicnt because tlie pros ision of the passw ord may not be 
incriminating, as ttat term is by tlic Supreme Court incases s,\k.\\3s Hoffinan v. U.S.. 341 U.S. 479 (1951). 

Fischer V. (J.S.. 425 U.S. 391 (1976). See Kerr. "A Revised Approach to the Fifth Amendment and 
Obtaining Passcodes." The Washington Post. September 25. 2015 

( hllps://w ww w s/\ olokh-coiisDinici Ai d/20 1 5/09/25/.Trc\ iscd-aDPioach-io-thc-riflh- 
amcndincni-and-obiainine-passcodcs/ l. Professor Kerr's analysis may be right, altliough it docs not appear 
that any courts ta\ e adopted iL and therefore there are still questions about the application of tlic Fifth 
Amendment to efforts to compel persons to provide their passcodes to the go\ eminent. 



likelihood that any defendant who faces potentially serious criminal charges would 
simply refuse to comply with the subpoena or order, and go into contempt.^ 

In sum: In almost all cases, it will be legally impossible to compel a defendant to provide 
his or her passcode or to use the passcode to open her or his phone. In those few cases in 
which it might be legally possible to compel the defendant to provide the information, it 
would be impossible as a practical matter to compel a recalcitrant defendant facing 
serious charges to do so. 

Question 19: 

When the government takes possession of an iPhone as evidence, what can the 
government do to get into the phone for evidentiary purposes? What are the 
limitations? What about an Android phone? 

Response to Question 19 : 

The applicable law enforcement agency may search the device pursuant to a judicially- 
authorized warrant after establishing probable cause, and subject to the encryption on the 
device. This applies to all types of devices. 

Question 20: 

After a serious criminal incident, how does law enforcement access a device (or app) 
to determine a suspect's contacts with other suspected criminals or co-conspirators? 
Qr determine if another crime is imminent? What privacy or security interests exist 
in that situation? 

Response to Question 20 : 

As in response to Question 19, in order to examine such evidence, the applicable law 
enforcement agency may search the device pursuant to a judicially-authorized warrant 
after establishing probable cause, and subject to the encryption on the device. This 
probable cause standard has long been recognized by our courts and legislature as the 
striking the correct balance between privacy and security. 

See, e.g.. In re Weiss. 703 F.2d 653. 660-65 (2d. Cir. 1983).